Keith Martin

[Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, November 5th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. friend from the government who always speaks so eloquently in this House.

Basically we are saying very similar things. The intent of the motion is to ensure what the hon. member said, that there are going to be bilateral, co-operative efforts between Israel and the Palestinian people, that the Palestinian people would have free access to markets, that they would have access to the benefits of this agreement and to ensure that there is going to be equity.

The reason why we brought this forward is that the current Likud government in Israel has not demonstrated that it has an interest in developing the peace process in any meaningful way.

Mr. Netanyahu has been giving lip service to the peace process since he came into power in May, saying one thing internationally and doing something very different domestically. That cannot be allowed to happen. We were hoping that Canada would use the bill as a carrot. Canada would say to the Israeli government: "We find your behaviour unacceptable. We have this opportunity here for you, the Israeli people, but also for the Palestinian people, that economic emancipation for both the Israelis and the Palestinians is absolutely essential for peace. Mr. Netanyahu, sir, you have not demonstrated that since you have come to power and Canada finds it completely unacceptable".

Therefore, here is a carrot to Israel that we can give but we want some demonstration from the Israeli government that indeed they are going to do what the hon. member just suggested.

We want some demonstration that it will ensure bilateral economic agreements with the Palestinian people, that it will ensure free access for the Palestinian people to markets, that it will address the problems associated with the closures of the West Bank and the Gaza strip which have such an enormous detrimental effect on the economy of the Palestinian autonomous regions.

We in the Reform Party put forward this motion to ensure Canada does not take a behind the scenes view but instead demonstrates its intent, interest and eagerness to co-operate. Canada should demonstrate its desire to build bridges between both people through this bill. Again, we want to make sure the bill addresses and helps both the Palestinians and the Israelis, not just the Israelis.

[Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, November 5th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak to Bill C-61 dealing with the Canada-Israel free trade agreement.

Although we support the agreement, I believe we have let down the people of the Middle East, the Israelis, the Palestinians and the larger Arab nations of the region with this agreement. Its roots held great promise and possibilities for improving the socioeconomic conditions for the Palestinian people which is absolutely integral for peace for that is part of the major problems addressing and affecting the terrible situation in the Middle East.

It is unfortunate that what we have seen in the last couple of months has nearly extinguished the flame of peace. The efforts for peace had been worked on for a long time and culminated in the Oslo accords last year which brought much hope to Palestinians and Israelis. It has almost been extinguished since Mr. Netanyahu and the Likud party came into power last May. Clearly the responsibility for what is taking place there does not rest entirely on their shoulders. It is a responsibility of both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

However, the bulk of what has taken place recently falls squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Netanyahu and his Likud party. He must understand that the health and welfare of the people he professes to help, the Israeli people, is intimately associated with the health and welfare of the Palestinian people. They are two halves of the same whole, whether they like it or not.

The dance of death, destruction and mayhem we have seen for so many years is simply not going to end unless the leaders of the Middle East demonstrate statesmanship, courage, leadership and faith. Without that, there is not going to be an end to the terrible and tragic deaths that have been occurring for ever so long. Indeed, it is

impossible to find any compelling justification for the deaths of Arab and Jewish youths. It is not necessary.

With strong leadership in the Middle East by both Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Arafat we will find a solution for peace in the Middle East. However, there are a number of things that they must come to terms with.

If Mr. Netanyahu believes that he can foist peace upon the Palestinian people, he is wrong. It will require an extraordinary amount of militarization. He will have to go into the Palestinian autonomous regions and it simply will not work. If he believes that the Palestinian people will somehow capitulate to a stronger Israel and that by foisting their ideals upon them they will back down, he is dead wrong. History has proven that the Palestinian people will not back down until their demands are met. On the other side, it will require a great deal of capitulation by Mr. Arafat and the Palestinian authority to ensure the safety of Israel and Israelis.

Both leaders will have to work together on this issue and both will have to compromise. They are also going to have to look at what happened around the Oslo peace accords as an example of what compromise can effect.

It is also going to require bold moves by Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Arafat if they are going to arrive at a solution.

There are a few realities that have to be recognized. The first is that the Israeli and the Palestinian people cannot live together. The only way to achieve long term peace is to separate Israel and Palestine. As painful as that realization may be, both sides are going to have to come to terms with it.

There are boundaries and maps which have been drawn by both sides which are not too dissimilar from each other. Essentially, the areas under Palestinian rule are the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the Palestinian autonomous regions. A strong security cord would be drawn around those areas. That is necessary for peace in the region.

Second, Israeli settlements in the Palestinian autonomous regions must be moved to other areas. The Israeli people who are living in these armed encampments must be removed.

A compromise can be achieved if a line is drawn around the West Bank which is contiguous with Israel and the settlers who are in the West Bank and Gaza strip can be moved there. That will be painful for both sides. However, they will probably be able to endure the pain quite easily. It would be a compromise for the Israeli settlers who wish to live in Palestinian autonomous regions and the Palestinian people who do not want to have Israeli armed camps in their midst. It would also defuse tension in these areas.

The Gaza strip is ready to blow up. We have been hearing that for some time. Now we have an opportunity to defuse the situation in the Gaza strip to avoid further killings. If the Gaza strip blows up we will see bloodshed the likes of which we have not seen for a very long time. That bloodshed will be needless and pointless. It is an avoidable tragedy.

Third, the Israelis have to stop blocking the West Bank and the Gaza strip. That completely blocks the ebb and flow of the Palestinian people. They cannot get to work. It separates husbands from their wives. Sick people cannot get to hospitals. It completely destroys the commerce of the Palestinian autonomous regions.

It is also wise for us to take a look at the roots which have caused such desperation in the Palestinian people, in particular among Palestinian youth in the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

For anyone who has visited that region, one can only be shocked and saddened by the deplorable and wretched conditions under which many of the Palestinian people live. The environment of abject poverty creates desperation. Out of desperation and frustration comes anger. Out of anger comes violence. That is in part why we have seen the Intifada. That is why we have seen Hamas. That is why we have seen, to a lesser extent, Islamic jihad.

These groups have managed to retain their power out of the frustration, the anger and the desperation which these people feel. Therefore economic emancipation for the Palestinian people in these areas is absolutely critical in the peace process. Ensuring that the Palestinian people have their own autonomous state is as important as economic emancipation.

There are two generations of Palestinian youth who are desperate. They are unemployed. The unemployment rate is over 60 per cent in some of these areas.

They have absolutely nothing to lose. When there is a group of people with nothing to lose, then there is a group of people who are desperate and will and have resorted to anything in their means.

Therefore what we need to see-I was hoping that Bill C-61 would enable Canada to take a leadership role in this-is to improve the economic situation in the West Bank. Canada, through Bill C-61, could have put pressure on the Israeli people to enter into bilateral agreements with the Palestinian people to improve the socioeconomic conditions, including health, hospitals, clinics, water and employment in Palestinian areas.

Unfortunately we have not seen that. What we are relying on is the goodwill of Mr. Netanyahu and his Likud Party to actually do this. So far since they have come to power in May we have seen

very little honest intention to actually work with the Palestinian authority on looking forward to a long term peace.

That was a grave mistake by Canada in not ensuring that this bill address that. Having said that, there are still opportunities. We can work with the IMF, the World Bank, the United Nations to help improve the socioeconomic conditions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip along with, of course, the Palestinian authorities.

However, if we do this, accountability and transparency must take place because there is some disturbing evidence that has come out that elements of the Palestinian authority is misappropriating a great number of funds that are coming through to it. They are not getting down to the people who desperately need this.

If moneys and funds and loans are going to come through and endeavours are going to take place in the Palestinian areas, they must be done with accountability and transparency. If that is not going to take place, then it simply ought not to be done.

The aspect of Jerusalem is a touchy issue but has to also be dealt with. I would propose, as a Roman Catholic, that Jerusalem be made an international sight for the religions of the world. No one single nation, no one single religion is to have control over this sensitive sight. Indeed, it is ironic that the centre, the site, which is so holy to the great religions of the world, would be the cause of so much rancour, so much bloodshed and so much heartache.

It is not the intention of Jerusalem. It is the exact opposite of what it has come to represent. Indeed, perhaps the only solution that we can have to ensure that this site is going to be available to the nations and the peoples of the earth to celebrate their religion is to make that site the United Nations site for the religions of the world, organized and guarded by the United Nations. I cannot see anything short of that taking place.

Another key player in the situation, of course, is Syria and Mr. Hafez al-Assad. No one is actually approaching Mr. Hafez al-Assad directly to bring him into the peace process. It is absolutely essential that this happen, not through intermediaries because in the Middle East the only way there is going to be actual action on this issue is if the leaders of the areas meet face to face.

Working through intermediaries is not going to actually produce any kind of effective, bold moves that are going to move this area into long term peace. Mr. al-Assad indeed as we all know in this House is an absolute key player in the peace process.

For Mr. Arafat's part, he has to be absolutely ruthless with Palestinian terrorists in his midst who are going to try to get rid of Israel, create terrorist activities on Israeli soil or create terrorist activities and terrorize his own Palestinian people.

He must demonstrate to the Israeli government and to the Israeli people that he also is honest in his intention for peace. He cannot work at both sides, as Mr. Netanyahu has done, paying lip service to peace on one hand but on the other hand trying to capitulate to a very hard line element in his midst. He has to demonstrate and go out on a limb and say the dove of peace is more important than the hand of war.

He must be ruthless with his security forces to make sure that he can demonstrate to Israel that he can control them. In September that was not in evidence when the bloodshed erupted in the West Bank and the Palestinian autonomous regions. Mr. Arafat did not demonstrate that he could control his security forces. It is absolutely essential for Israel and the Israeli people to have that comfort that these forces can indeed be controlled.

In the end, the ultimate solution with regard to the Israel-Palestinian situation is that these two peoples, who are very similar in many ways, cannot live under the same roof. They will not live as one country. Therefore both groups, both leaders, both political powers must come to the realization that the only effective, bold, long term solution to peace in the Middle East is going to be Israel and Palestine consisting of a two nation state.

After that I hope that there would be bilateral and economic endeavours, agreements and initiatives between both sides. One of the many existing problems is the massive water problem which few people are taking into consideration. Potable water, particularly in Israel and Palestine, is in critical short supply. This issue affects the people of both Israel and Palestine. Therefore it is important that this issue be addressed co-operatively. This can demonstrate the good will and co-operation that is needed to build bridges between both sides.

Mr. Netanyahu has to take the first step. He has a long way to go to demonstrate that he has the statesmanship of his predecessors, one being Mr. Perez. He must demonstrate to the world, his people and to the Palestinian people that he is committed to the peace process. To do anything less will commit his nation and the region to years of bloody civil strife and conflict with absolutely no movement forward to long term peace.

There is a saying in the Middle East that peace is when a son buries his father, but war is when a father buries his son. For the sake of the children, the sons, the fathers, the daughters and the wives of the Israeli and Palestinian people that the leaders will join hands and demonstrate to their people and the world that they can indeed make the bold moves necessary to finally develop a long lasting peace in the Middle East.

I hope that Canada, a nation that has been a part of every single peacekeeping initiative in the Middle East, a nation of great international respect, can move forward to try to bring these two nations together.

We are fortunate that Mr. Raymond Chrétien has been appointed the UN rapporteur to Central Africa. We have seen the Norwegians display their statesmanship in bringing the Israeli and Palestinians together through the Oslo accords. Canada is capable of doing the same thing. Canada is internationally respected, we have diplomatic power and abilities to try to bring warring groups together under one umbrella to build bridges.

It is not going to cost Canada more money to do this. From a purely self-centred point of view, it is actually going to save Canada and Canadians money through drains on our defence, immigration and international development aid budgets. There is compelling justification for Canada to get involved, to use our existing diplomatic structures to finally bring the Israeli and Palestinian people together but also involve the Syrians, Egyptians and Iranians.

I hope the government will take it upon itself to invest the people we already have in this worthwhile initiative for the sake of peace and the people of the Middle East.

I have a motion to put forward. I move:

That we amend the bill by deleting all the words after the word "that" and substituting the following:

That Bill C-61, an act to implement the Canada-Israeli free trade agreement be not now read a third time but be referred back to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade for the purpose of reconsidering clause 62 and, in particular, to consider substantially changing the implementation date.

[Africa, November 4th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, the situation in central Africa is approaching chaos; not like two years ago, it is worse.

Inaction by the international community will result in the collapse of Zaire, Burundi and Rwanda and the deaths of millions of innocent people.

There are some solutions. First, our UN rapid reaction force should be put in urgently to ensure the safe evacuation of the civilian populations. Second, humanitarian assistance must be organized to ensure that the basic needs of the evacuees are met. Third, all arms shipments to the region should be blocked. Fourth, the three nation states should be put under temporary UN management and a ceasefire brokered. Last, they should consider redrawing the boundaries according to the precolonial tribal boundaries.

Inaction will produce one of the worst cases of genocide of this century. We must not let that happen again.

[Tobacco Legislation, November 1st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, let us look at an example of due diligence.

Last March the Minister of Health promised legislation forthwith; forthwith twice last June, twice last month. The hon. member who just spoke promised a year and a half ago that legislation would be coming forthwith and that she would do anything to stop Canadian children from smoking.

While the government is dithering about the issue, 250,000 children take up smoking every single year.

I ask the government, for the sake of the children of this country, when is it going to bring tobacco legislation to the House?

[Tobacco Legislation, November 1st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Health advised the Canadian people not to vote for the Liberal Party unless it brought tobacco legislation into the House. He also said that he would bring forth legislation when he is good and ready.

While the minister dithers, 40,000 Canadians die of smoking related illnesses every year.

I ask the government how many more Canadians have to die from smoking related illnesses before it brings legislation into the House?

[Radioactive Waste Importation Act, October 31st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I stand today in full support of Bill C-236 put forward by my colleague from Fraser Valley East. I have listened to the assertions made by members from the government. I honestly cannot believe in good conscience that they have actually mentioned their claims. Obviously they have not read the bill.

The purpose of the bill is to protect Canadians now and in the future. Currently we do not have any legislation to protect Canadians from waste from other countries being brought to our shores for disposal. There are no regulatory measures. That means radioactive waste can be imported. That is the purpose of Bill C-236. The member has proven to be proactive on this issue. This should not be taken lightly and has been put forward with justification.

The justification has been seen here in the House today and I will give some examples. Members from the government strongly suggested that we as a caring, considerate society in the face of sustainable development ought to be bringing nuclear waste from other countries to be deposited on our shores because these countries do not have the capabilities of waste disposal. This will be done under the guise of sustainable development.

Sustainable development is not bringing somebody else's waste to Canada's shores. It means dealing with your own waste in your own country in your own fashion. It is true that these countries probably do not have the technology to deal with waste disposal. That is where Canada can make an effective contribution because we are leaders in the nuclear industry. This is an opportunity for Canada to provide technical assistance to these countries to deal with their nuclear waste.

We should not be bringing their nuclear waste to Canada. It is not our responsibility to do that. We would be abrogating our responsibility to the health and welfare of Canadians if we brought these highly toxic, carcinogenic and teratogenic, mutagenic substances to our soil. Later I will give examples of how serious this problem is in the Arctic.

Contrary to what government members have been saying, we export plutonium from Saskatchewan, which is our second largest producer of plutonium, to Japanese power plants. That is a serious problem because this plutonium, which can live for tens of thousands of years, has to travel across Canada and then across the oceans. We rely on other regulatory bodies in order to ensure the safety of Canadians but that should not be the case.

My colleague from Fraser Valley East brought forth this very strong and important bill to protect Canadians by ensuring that waste is not brought to this country, transported across Canadian soil through Canadian towns and cities, creating a potential for the public to be exposed to lethal material.

We are clearly in favour of sustainable development. We fully support Canadians using our technology to help those who are less fortunate in other parts of the world, but let us not bring their problems to our shores.

It is also important to dispel the myths put forth by some Liberal members saying that we are against the importation of nuclear materials for technology and medicine. I ask the hon. member to read the bill. The bill deals with waste, waste, waste. It deals with nuclear waste, not nuclear material effectively used in industry and in the world of medicine.

It is important for us to put the bill in perspective and to look at the international complexity of it and why the member brought it forward. There are over 413 nuclear reactors in the world. Each of them produces nuclear waste, much of which is a real problem to get rid of. We have our own problems in our own country in disposing of our own waste. We do not need to bring in literally thousands of tonnes of spent nuclear rods and nuclear materials out there looking for a home. That home is not in Canada.

We should also look at another issue. I was at a meeting with a number of scientists from Russia who said they had to decommission over 100 nuclear submarines within the next few years. They were referring to the nuclear material within the submarines. The response of the Russians has been widespread dumping on the Kola Peninsula, widespread dumping in northern Russia.

This is not a problem happening half a world away that will not affect us. This problem very much affects us. One need not look any further than at the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories, the Arctic and Yukon. They have much higher rates of genetic abnormalities and birth defects as a direct result of the outpouring of nuclear material that is being negligently, irresponsibly and criminally disposed of over areas of the Kola Peninsula in Russia.

That is the problem. It is affecting Canadians today. We have to be very clear about that. The government ought to pay very close attention to the problem. Nobody is speaking for those aboriginal people in the north who are suffering from the effects of this nuclear material.

It is not something that Canada should take on its shoulders alone. Clearly it is something in which we can take a leadership position in the international community to bring forth all the good ideas out there to provide help to the Russian people on how to deal with the problem.

It is not the only problem. We have seen much about Chernobyl. We have heard much of the problems associated with this disaster. However the Chernobyl reactor is just one of many other reactors that exist in Russia today. There are literally dozens and dozens of leaky nuclear reactors in Russia that will produce other Chernobyls in the near future.

The international community will not have the ability and the funds to deal with the problem when it actually becomes a horrendous situation along the lines of Chernobyl. It is extremely important for us as a country to work with other countries to address the problem in a proactive fashion now, before the reactors leak in a widespread fashion, the outcome of which will affect Canadians. It is that simple.

The leakage of nuclear materials half a world away indeed affects us. Members from the government said that we do not need to worry about nuclear material being brought into Canada because nothing has happened of the sort. The fact remains that international organizations have found that Canada is an ideal place to dump nuclear waste. In Ontario alone 1,300 spots have been identified in the Canadian Shield.

The theory is that we dig a hole half a kilometre into the Canadian Shield and dump the nuclear waste into it. Earthquakes and seepage into the groundwater have not been taken into consideration. There is also the consequences of the nuclear material, some of which has a life in the tens of thousands of years. It kills. It is carcinogenic. It is mutagenic and teratogenic. It causes terrible defects in children. This is not pie in the sky; this is happening now.

People are closely looking at Canada, particularly the Canadian Shield, as an ideal place for the disposal of waste from other countries.

In closing, I fully support Bill C-236 in the name of the hon. member for Fraser Valley East. I encourage all members of the House to support it for the sake of the health and welfare of all Canadians.

[Human Reproductive And Genetic Technologies Act, October 31st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. friend from the Liberal Party. His concerns are the same as our concerns. Our interest is in protecting the health and welfare of all Canadians, all people in this country. Our goal is exactly the same as that of the hon. member. The word appropriate is extremely important and I will get back to it.

In answer to his question, Bill C-47 indicates that the buying and selling of eggs, sperm and embryos including their exchange for goods, services or other benefits but excluding the recovery of expenses incurred in the collection, storage and distribution of sperm, ova and embryos for persons other than a donor will be prohibited. The government will ban in vitro fertilization.

I will address some of the hon. member's other concerns. He spoke about partisanship in the House. If the hon. member would look at my blues he would know that at the end of my speech I said I am sure members from all parties would be happy to work with the government to ensure we have effective legislation in this area and, more important, to ensure that Canadians get their essential health care services. The hon. member alluded to that.

Canadians are not getting their essential health care services when they need them. Accessibility is being denied to Canadians. Provincial governments ration essential services because there is not enough money to do all we ask for right now. The government ripped out $3 billion in transfer payments to the provinces.

If the government thinks that providing Canadians access to essential services is ripping out $3 billion in transfer payments to the provinces for health, it has another thing coming. That is not what we want to do.

The Reform Party, for the 100th time, is committed to ensuring that every Canadian regardless of how much money they have in their pockets will have access to essential health care services when they medically need them, not when their pocketbook allows it and not when the bottom line in provincial coffers allow it. We are vehemently opposed to an American style health care system. We are the party that wants to ensure that Canadians have access to the essential services they need.

If we are to move to an era where Canadians have access to essential health care services we must change our mindset. We must move toward an era where we will amend the Canada Health Act to give people choice. It is not a magic bullet. It is not a panacea for all that ills the health and welfare of Canadians, but it is a start.

In conjunction with other initiatives including better management, identifying effective preventive measures and effective legislation on smoking and tobacco regulation, these measures can be used to build a stronger health act and to build a system that is distinct and superior to the those of the Americans, the British, the Germans and the French. Canada will build it. We can do it by making these amendments to the Canada Health Act.

We cannot be entrenched in an act put forth decades ago that hamstrings the ability of our country and Canadians to move forward. If we adhere to the act in its entirety as it stands now, it prevents that from happening. The government is living a sham. The government is hamstringing the provinces from being able to provide health care to Canadians.

Members of my party and I would be happy to present to the government any place, any time, anywhere, effective solutions to ensure that Canadians obtain their health care in a timely fashion.

[Human Reproductive And Genetic Technologies Act, October 31st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from the Bloc Quebecois for her question.

The hon. member raised a very good question. She is absolutely correct. The government has used a ham-fisted approach to try to craft a bill based on fear and not one based on any knowledge of the issue.

The terms and definitions used are vague and broad. In a court of law they would be very difficult to support unless the government were to be more explicit on the issue. The fact of the matter is that the government has a lot of work if it is to do this.

That will be one of the stumbling blocks. It is one of the major reservations I personally have about the bill. The government has used a scythe to cut through huge areas of research. It has taken the good out with the bad. I am sure that is part of what my friend from the Bloc Quebecois was referring to and is one of the major problems with this ill crafted bill rooted in ignorance.

[Human Reproductive And Genetic Technologies Act, October 31st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak to Bill C-47. Before I get into my primary intervention, I would like to make a few comments about what my hon. friend from the Liberal Party said.

He mentioned that this bill is based on fear. Yes, it is based on fear. It is a triumph of fear over fact and a triumph of ignorance over knowledge. That is a shame.

The hon. member quite correctly and eloquently mentioned the tremendous benefits that could be derived. He eloquently demonstrated that in the examples of cystic fibrosis and muscular dystrophy, two genetic diseases that exact a terrible toll on the youth of the world. These are diseases which snuff out life in its prime, before it can ever achieve its true potential.

Having personally seen these diseases up close and having watched many of these people die, I can only say it is beyond belief that this House would even comprehend a bill that would deprive people from the opportunity and hope of having a cure.

The member quite correctly mentioned that genetic surgery can take place all through the genes. That would help people in the future not have these terrible diseases. We can eliminate these scourges within our midst if we have the tools. However, Bill C-47 states that the bureaucrats will now have the power to stop the research and medical communities from developing and accessing the tools that can be of such enormous benefit to people.

The member quite correctly mentioned the fact that many previous discoveries have come from research that people tried to ban in times past. Thankfully for all of us here, that research was

not banned. If it had been I can guarantee that some of the people in this room would not be here today. It is because of research that we have been able to eliminate these scourges and save millions and millions of lives.

There are 13 proposals in this bill for banning certain things. Some ought to be banned because they pose a threat to our species and to other species. However, we need to determine what those are. We ought not take a sledgehammer and deprive the research community from developing those tools that are going to benefit humanity.

Canadian researchers have made significant and enormous contributions to the international medical community, to research in many areas. Unfortunately, the government is gutting research and depriving the research community so it cannot provide these important discoveries that are going to benefit everybody.

This bill stems from a study that cost the Canadian taxpayers over $30 million. This is money that could have been well spent in some other areas, particularly in view of the fact that Canadians are not receiving essential services that they need and in fact are getting sicker and sometimes dying on waiting lists. Essential health care services are being rationed because there is not enough money to meet the demands on the health care system.

In that backdrop, the government chose to spend $30 million putting this study together, a study, I might add, which did not consult some of the primary players in reproductive technologies and infertility. They were grouped into a few areas and I would like to illustrate a few of those.

I cannot believe that the government would ask that bureaucrats deprive the 15 per cent of Canadian couples who cannot have children and who desperately want to have children. How arrogant can it be to deprive people from having the choice? The government has lumped into this bill things that need to be treated in a very serious fashion, but some of things need to be regulated or in fact banned. However, we need to determine what should be banned, what should be regulated and what should be allowed.

The government has taken a cudgel and has said to the Canadian people: "Bang. This is not going to be allowed. The benefits of the research in these areas are simply not going to be allowed".

There are other areas that are extremely important. The government talks about germ cell line alteration. The Liberal member who previously spoke brought up some fanciful descriptions from The Island of Dr. Moreau and from Frankenstein .

However, I think we need to look at this in a very factual way. As we speak some genetic alterations are taking place in animals, for example pigs, to provide people with organs which will be able to survive in people who need organ transplants.

I ask that members look very deeply into their souls. I would like members to ask themselves if they would deprive a 20-year old person who was previously healthy but through no fault of their own has a viral infection of the heart and needs a new one. Without a new heart that person would die.

Sadly, there simply are not enough organs to provide all the people who need them. Bless the hearts of those souls who die tragically but who have arranged that their organs be donated to other people. That gift of life brings honour to them and their families.

This bill would deprive science of providing people with organs that would work a lot better in their bodies. Researchers are working on the organs of pigs which will have a much greater chance of surviving in humans with fewer side effects.

The hon. member from the Liberal Party mentioned cystic fibrosis, Duchenne muscular dystrophy and a host of other genetic problems. These research capabilities that the government chooses to ban will deprive Canadians and the rest of the world of being able to share the benefits of any discoveries.

There are many other genetic possibilities. Science is on the threshold of discovering areas where we can make very significant improvements in the health and welfare of Canadians. However the government wants to deprive Canadians of this benefit.

The government wants to create a new registry. The purpose of the registry indicates that the bureaucracy thinks it knows more than research. The registry is going to cost money that we do not have because it has to come out of the existing health care budget. This budget is strained beyond the demands that are placed on it right now.

We need not look any further than the Ottawa heart institute where people sadly have died while waiting for important and urgent cardiovascular surgery.

The bill also proposes to spend money. The bill also proposes as its hidden agenda to have things such as in vitro fertilization covered under the medical services plan. In committee I asked Dr. Patricia Baird how this would be done, given the fact that the demands of society on our medical services far exceed what can be provided. How can we afford to cover procedures such as IVF which costs $5,000 under the medical plan? This would make it a right for every single person in Canada. We do not have the money to do this. It is high time we prioritized our spending. The government has chosen to prevent infertile couples from having access to this.

In its wisdom the government's rationale is, why should things such as in vitro fertilization be brought down to the lowest common

denominator of commerce? Nobody is going to get rich donating their sperm or ova. It is not a business people want to get into. The moneys given to the people who choose to donate their sperm or ova is compensation for the time, effort and the extensive studies and trial tests necessary in making a donation. It is not much money and compensation is necessary to get willing donors.

In other countries where the compensation factor has been withdrawn the number of donors has dropped precipitously. When that drops precipitously, the access couples have to in vitro fertilization drops too. What will they do? They will go to the United States and get it done there at a greater cost and with greater suffering to them. They do not need that when they are already suffering under the yoke of not being able to have children.

Philosophically I do not see how the government can take it upon itself to put research under the realm of a group of bureaucrats who may not know anything at all about the complex issues at hand. Would it not make more sense first to determine what needs to be regulated because research is being pursued in an area where there is a danger to society, to our species and others?

First determine whether these research initiatives pose a threat. If that is so, then let us work with the research community to produce regulations or if necessary to ban them. The government has chosen not to do that. Instead it has chosen to take its sledgehammer and squash these initiatives lock, stock and barrel.

Some constructive solutions could be employed. Some of these solutions involve the identification of the procedures to be covered, the procedures that should not be banned and the procedures that should be allowed to take place.

I do not know where the government has come from on this issue except that it wants to create a new registry and regulate an area in which it has no place. I ask rhetorically whether the government is going to regulate other areas of medical research, or physics research, or chemistry research, or research in other basic sciences. The government has not done that. It is singling out this area because a very small number of people who have ingratiated themselves into Health Canada have brought it upon themselves in their moral way and decided they are the ones best suited to decide which way research should go. That is heavy handed and completely arrogant.

The government should not have bothered itself with an area in which it has no place. It should have concerned itself with the far more pressing problems which exist concerning the health and welfare of Canadians.

Today I attended an international conference on smoking which the Minister of Health was at. He said this morning in a heartfelt way to the hundreds of people who were there: "I am going to bring good, constructive health legislation to the House forthwith". He also said: "Judge me by what I do, not by what I say". The minister was talking out of both sides of his mouth because in the House today the minister said that he would bring forth legislation when he was good and ready.

In March the minister promised that he would bring in tough legislation to regulate tobacco forthwith. He promised it twice in June. He promised it earlier this month. He promised it today. To date no one in this country has seen any regulation or any tough constructive ideas and legislation to prevent that which is the single most preventable cause of death within Canada.

I need not remind the House and most of the members who have children that smoking is the single most important, detrimental problem that exists for Canada's youth today. And it is preventable. It is most tragic that with the tobacco tax rollback brought forth by the government in 1994, there has been a 30 to 40 per cent increase in the consumption of tobacco by children and teenagers. Every month 20,000 teenagers pick up tobacco. Every year 40,000 Canadians die of tobacco related diseases. It is an issue which the government should be deeply concerned with.

Instead of concerning itself with the single most preventable cause of death in this country, one that exceeds the deaths from suicides, car accidents, gun shot wounds and AIDS by a factor of three, the government concerns itself with legislation on human reproductive technologies. It is depriving the Canadian public of research which would benefit many people around the world and technologies and medical benefits that would enable the 15 per cent of Canadians who are infertile to have an opportunity to have children.

I cannot fathom how the government in all conscience can do this. I do not understand why the Minister of Health does not bring forth proper legislation to enable Canadians to have access to essential services. Government members continually claim that they are the ones who are going to uphold the Canada Health Act. They are the ones who say they will ensure access to essential health care services to every Canadian in a timely fashion.

Accessibility is one of the most important aspects of the Canada Health Act. Access to health care is worse today than it was when the government came into power. Waiting lists are getting longer. The waiting lists for special services are much longer than they should be. That is not access. That is not upholding the Canada Health Act. That is not enabling Canadians to access health care in a timely fashion. It is deplorable that the government is playing politics with this issue, an issue which is so important to Canadians from coast to coast.

With respect to the smoking issue, I remind the House it is particularly important in the province of Quebec where consumption is the highest in the country. It is a profound and tragic addiction which affects Quebecers. It puts an enormous strain on Quebec's health care budget. But it is an epidemic which is occurring from coast to coast.

I hope the government will try to work with members across all party lines. Believe it or not, we all have the same goal. We all want to improve the health of Canadians. We all want to ensure that Canadians have access to health care in a timely fashion. That is the goal of the Reform Party. I am sure it is also the goal of the Liberal Party, the Bloc Quebecois and the New Democratic Party. We have to work together on this issue and put aside the rhetoric. We have to build a stronger, made in Canada health act with made in Canada solutions to provide better health care to all Canadians.

[Human Reproductive And Genetic Technologies Act, October 31st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed my colleague's speech. She brought forth a number of very interesting concerns.

Most poignant was that the concernsof the Bloc Quebecois member and the people of Quebec are the same as those of the people of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, Newfoundland or any other province. The legislation demonstrates the heavy-handedness of the central federal government. It is a concern for all of us.

If Quebec separates, does the member feel the people of Quebec would be covered under the principles of the Canada Health Act? Would that coverage be effective if they travelled to other Canadian provinces, and vice versa?