Leon Benoit

[Supply, May 6th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, we are debating the long list of attacks the government has made on farmers across the country. Quite frankly, it turns my stomach to hear the member of parliament who just spoke, my colleague across the floor and others say that somehow they are going to tell our farmers how to farm better. The last thing we need is for them to tell farmers how to farm better.

When it comes to these conservation techniques the member was talking about, farmers in my part of the country have been using them widely for 10 years. They are so far ahead of the government it is not funny. All farmers ask of the government is to take care of a few specific things and then get out of their way and let them do their jobs. Instead government continues to attack and interfere. I do not have much time to talk about that but I am going to mention some of the ways the government attacks and interferes with our farmers.

All farmers want from the government is to properly negotiate the unfair trade practices which are destroying their prices and driving prices down. Government is very weak on this. It does a pitiful job in terms of negotiating trade deals and dealing with unfair trade practices. That is what farmers want it to deal with. They want a basic safety net program. What the government has put forth is a disaster. It simply has not delivered the few things farmers want from it, yet it keeps throwing other things at farmers. I could go through a long list but I do not have the time.

The government has forced farmers to pay for inspections through the Pest Management Regulatory Agency and other places. The inspections are done for the good of the general population yet farmers are made to pay for them. That is unfair. It is that kind of attack our farmers do not want.

The government has made farmers and other taxpayers pay for 200 Department of Fisheries and Oceans employees who were sent to the prairies. It destroys the fisheries off the east coast and then sends DFO people to the prairies to further interfere and make it more difficult for farmers and communities to do their business. That is the kind of attack the farmers do not need from the government.

The gun registry is another government interference which has just been devastating. It cannot even keep guns out of the hands of Mom Boucher for Pete's sake. He is one of the biggest organized crime figures in the country and he still successfully registered his guns. The registry is a complete disaster. That is what the government throws at farmers. The registry is expensive, intrusive and unnecessary.

Bill C-5 and Bill C-15B are before the House. The government throws these bills at farmers and they are devastating. Bill C-5, the species at risk legislation, will not protect a single species. We know that. It is a very heavy-handed approach and the penalty is extremely high. There is so little co-operation in the legislation that if a species is found, the farmer, cottage owner, or whoever it is as this will affect a lot more than farmers, will make sure that the species will not remain one way or another. It will lead to more harm to endangered species rather than less.

Members of the rural caucus stood and said they got compensation for the farmers. That is a deceitful statement to farmers. They are deceiving their own constituents with those statements. They are absolutely untrue. I challenge them to show us where compensation is written in the legislation. I challenge them to show us where in any regulation there is a fair market value guarantee. It is not even suggested. The compensation those members have talked about is not there. They are being dishonest with their constituents and that has to change. That is not an acceptable thing for government members do. The rural caucus members from the Liberal Party will have a lot to answer for when their farmers find out what is in the legislation and what is not. That is unacceptable.

In Bill C-15B, the cruelty to animals legislation, the government again is attacking farmers. That is what our motion is about today. The government is making it very difficult for farmers to operate. Farmers will be subjected to court challenges at their own expense. The government does this and says that everything is okay.

The member for Peterborough had the nerve to stand and talk about 50 year old legislation that already determined what is going to happen in terms of allowing farmers to use animals the way they do and produce animals the way they choose. If that is the case, then why did the government bring forward this legislation? He said the legislation has been fine for 50 years. The judge ruled 50 years ago that it is okay, so why do we have this intrusive legislation which will make life difficult for farmers?

I know my time is up, but the list is very long and I have been able to mention only a few of the key attacks of the government on farmers. The members of the rural caucus ought to be ashamed because they will only get caught in their own deception.

[National Defence, May 2nd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, we make do with 40 year old Sea Kings. We make do with too few soldiers. We make do with leaky subs. We make do with the minister. We cannot continue to make do with the minister.

Respected military experts are warning Canadians today that we are only 15 years away from mass extinction. How many more reports does the minister have to hear before he will do something to prevent this mass extinction of our military?

[National Defence, May 2nd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, when people buy something at a fire sale, they check it out very carefully. The government bought the subs at a fire sale price. One would have thought it would have checked the subs out very carefully.

I ask the minister, when the government bought the subs, did it know they had been condemned by the British House of Commons and refused by the Australians?

[South Asian Heritage Month, May 2nd, 2002]

Madam Speaker, South Asian immigrants started arriving in Canada at the end of the 19th century and have made a marvellous contribution to this country over the past century. To recognize this, the government of Ontario recently proclaimed May of each year as South Asian Heritage Month and May 5 as South Asian Heritage Day.

The first South Asian immigrants arrived in my constituency in Lac La Biche more than a century ago. In fact, they celebrated their 100th anniversary two years ago.

I would like to recognize today Sam Chopra, president of the South Asians of Ontario, and all members of this association for the great work they have done in building stronger communities and for the wonderful hospitality and friendship which they have shared with me for the past three years.

I wish to thank all Canadians of South Asian descent for the important part they have played in making Canada the best country in the world in which to live.

[National Defence, May 1st, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, plans for a review of Canada's defence policy are long overdue. It has been nearly a decade since the last white paper and our Canadian forces are in crisis. It is alarming that whatever is being done is occurring in secret despite the defence minister's promise that MPs, senators and ordinary Canadians would be involved. Even the House of Commons defence committee has no indication of what its involvement will be. This is completely unacceptable.

We do not need another unaccountable review process run by the Prime Minister's Office which reaches conclusions that are predetermined. That is not what we need. I call on the government to fully engage parliament and produce a full white paper by the spring of 2003. This white paper must include a specific commitment of money to carry out the plan, starting with an immediate $2 billion added to the defence budget.

The defence minister promised a new defence review. Canadians expect a new defence policy and they expect to be involved in the process.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, April 30th, 2002]

They like eating.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the debate this afternoon is on Bill C-15B, which is called the cruelty to animals bill and which we have been debating in the House for some time. Many people have approached me and written to me saying that they support the bill because it would help protect animals and prevent cruelty to animals. However, very many also have written, e-mailed and phoned to say that we cannot let this pass because it is going to interfere in their raising of farm animals, or in their trapping business or in their fishing business and so on. I have had many, many calls, letters and e-mails from those people saying that if this legislation passes it will cause very serious problems for them and for their businesses, and for no reason, because they fully respect animals and believe in taking good care of animals. They do not believe in cruelty to animals.

We have had these two parties come forth on different sides of the bill. I would suggest that those who say they support the legislation because they want to help reduce cruelty to animals would support the proposition that I will make to the government right now. If we are truly here to help prevent cruelty to animals, then why do we not right now today throw this bill aside because of all the objections from so many people, farmers and others, and put in place instead a bill that will increase the penalties for those who are cruel to animals? Let us deal with it in that way. It would certainly satisfy those people who have come out in favour of the legislation because they want to help protect animals and prevent cruelty. It would certainly be supported by those people, and it would be supported by farmers and others who are very concerned about this piece of legislation.

Why do we not just do that, just throw this legislation aside and put in place very simple legislation increasing the penalties for those who are cruel to animals? I think we would all be very happy. I doubt if there is one member of parliament in the House who supports cruelty to animals. There are very few people across the country who support cruelty to animals so that is not the issue. The issue is how we in fact prevent cruelty to animals. I suggest that this legislation anything but the solution.

I have a letter from the Dairy Farmers of Canada. I think the dairy farmers have made their points very well when it comes to looking at this from a farmer's point of view. There are many farmers in my constituency. They truly are the backbone of my constituency in terms of the economy and in terms of our communities and they are very strongly against this legislation, almost to a person. One of the things they have said they are concerned about is just what the Dairy Farmers of Canada said. They are concerned about redefining animals which have been and are now defined as property in the criminal code. The dairy farmers are saying that must be maintained. I fully support that, as do farmers in my part of the country. The reason for supporting it is that Canada's agriculture industry is in fact based on the principle of ownership of animals. It is a farmer's legal right to use animals for food production; this stems from his proprietary right in these animals. That is what is in the criminal code now. That is something I fully support.

By moving that definition of animals to a new definition in the act, which is what the bill does, to a new category of special property, I think we are certainly creating problems and so do the dairy farmers. They say that “the Government is changing the legal status of animals” and that puts farmers at risk because it has not been carefully defined and it really will change the way that the courts view animals and the treatment of animals.

The Dairy Farmers of Canada stated, and I think this is an important point, one that the government should pay attention to, that “Humane treatment [of animals] is not compromised by an animal's designation as property” as it is in the act right now. The dairy farmers stated:

The Government could maintain the current status of animals as property under the Criminal Code and still meet its stated goal of this legislation--

They are right.

Why does the government not just do that? Why not just leave the definition the same as it is under the act? That will certainly help deal with some of the problems that we have right now.

The second area I want to talk about is the definition of animal in this legislation. It has to be changed and I will tell members why. Animal is defined in the act as “a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”. That is the way it is stated in the bill. It is hard to believe but it is true. “Any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain” is much too broad a definition. That opens up farmers to potential litigation that is almost unimaginable, but not just farmers. Let us take the example of a gardener in downtown Ottawa or Edmonton who finds a slug in the garden. Slugs are not nice things. The only way I know to control slugs is to squash them, to kill them. That is what people do because slugs destroy vegetables in large numbers.

If a gardener were to do that under this new legislation that is being proposed, I ask the government, could he or she be charged under the act as having committed cruelty to animals? Do slugs feel pain? I do not know. I think they probably do. I would suggest this means that under the act and under this definition of an animal as “any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”, a gardener in downtown Ottawa, Edmonton or Toronto could be found guilty of having committed a serious crime under the criminal code. Is that the intent of this legislation? I doubt it very much, so let us throw this legislation aside and put in place legislation that will do the job without putting this kind of threat before Canadians in general.

Of course when it comes to farm animals I think there is even more of a threat. We have to take an even more careful look at that. I would suggest that there is no group of people in this country more concerned about animals than farmers. Their very livelihood depends on taking good care of their animals. Nobody is more concerned. In fact, farmers across the country have set and follow high standards of animal care and treatment. They set those standards themselves and they follow them, all but a very few.

Why would we put in place legislation that could end up causing such hardship to a gardener in downtown Toronto or a farmer just outside of Mannville, Alberta? Why are we willing to put this kind of threat over the heads of these people when they have done nothing wrong and when they truly do believe in the best interests of animals? As the previous speaker said, a farmer could have a herd of 200 cows and know the names of every one of them. Farmers know the history of their animals, they care for them and they try to save every calf produced. They care for them in a way that is going to give them the best life possible. That is what farmers do. This law is a true threat to farmers.

The last issue I will talk about because of the very limited time today is the defences that are in the current criminal code: the defences of “legal justification, excuse and colour of right”, as they are referred to. This is currently in subsection 429(2). The Dairy Farmers of Canada say it must be retained and I agree. This is extremely important.

The Dairy Farmers of Canada state:

Agricultural producers must have access to defenses that provide assurances for legitimate animal-based activities--

They must have that assurance and that is lost in this legislation. The statement continues:

Including these defenses [as they are in the criminal code now] would not diminish the stated intent of this law.

In other words, the government could carry out its goal to protect against cruelty to animals without changing that definition.

In fact, the former justice minister said “what is lawful today will continue to be lawful” after this legislation is passed. If that is the case, if we can do under this new law what we could do under the old, why do we not throw all of this legislation aside, which has serious problems that I and many others have referred to, and put in place a simple piece of legislation which states that if people commit cruelty to animals we will increase the fines and people will be subject to very severe penalties? I support that. My party supports that. I think every member in the House would support that. For a change why do we not see some common sense on the part of the government and do that? We would have the problem solved and the issue dealt with in a way that would not threaten the livelihoods and the very freedom of Canadians.

The legislation, if passed, would truly threaten the very freedom of Canadians and especially those who depend on animals for their livelihood.

[Immigration, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, Canada has fallen far short on its obligations when it comes to refugees. We have accepted very few refugees identified by the United Nations as refugees from overseas camps. That is a fact.

Will the minister just stand up and admit that Canada has no obligation to accept refugee claimants from the United States, which is a safe country?

[Immigration, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the immigration minister said that Canada had an obligation under the UN convention on refugees to accept people from the United States who claim refugee status in Canada.

In fact, Canada has an obligation to accept genuine refugees from camps around the world.

Will the minister admit that Canada has no obligation to accept bogus claimants from the United States?

[Excise Act, 2001, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, it seems the Bloc is the only party not supporting the legislation. It was carrying on a bit of a filibuster but now government members are getting involved in the filibuster. I think the reason has nothing to do with the bill and its content. The reason is that there are only two serious pieces of legislation before the House. First, there is Bill C-5 the species at risk bill. The government is so split over the bill that there is a huge problem in its caucus about it. It does not want to face the bill again. It put it off yesterday.

Second, Bill C-15B is the next bill scheduled to come before the House. It is both an extremely important piece of legislation and a bad piece of legislation. It has caused an urban rural split in the government caucus with which it does not want to deal.

The government is filibustering its own legislation because there is such a split in its caucus it does not want to deal with the two important pieces of legislation before the House.

I have not seen before in the House of Commons any government with such a thin soup agenda. It has so little of substance to talk about that it is filibustering its own legislation. Government members talk about the bill because they do not want to let things die and admit they have nothing to say or offer the country when it comes to legislation. This is a surprise and it is quite shocking.

We need a government on that side that has issues of substance to deal with on behalf of Canadians. It certainly is not coming from the Liberal government.