Mario Laframboise

[Committees of the House, December 3rd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, it is convenient for the government to say that it does not want to pay. They can use that excuse to get out of the bind they are in. But the real story is that the Conservatives do not want things to change. If the government is forced to pay compensation, apologize, issue clear directives and clear people's names, that means that it made a mistake and must correct it. In my opinion, the government is using the excuse that it does not want to pay because compensation will be expensive to hide the fact that it does not want things to change.

[Committees of the House, December 3rd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, first, what my colleague says is very serious. Once the government admits that these people suffered unwarranted abuse, it has a duty to apologize. That is the first reason. The government must apologize first to clear their names, because it damaged their reputations. But because of the Conservative right-wing ideology, it does not want to admit anything or apologize because it does not want to let on that people made serious mistakes. That is the outcome. It means that the government does not want to let on to the people who do the interrogating and those who send questions to other countries to interrogate people that mistakes were made. It does not want things to change.

Recommendation 3 is followed by recommendation 4, which called on the government to issue a clear directive. The Conservatives opposed recommendations 3 and 4, simply because they do not want practices to change. That is the worst thing.

[Committees of the House, December 3rd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, my colleague is right about the fact that the Conservatives only care about the end result. They do not care how it is achieved, and this has some ramifications. Indeed, a commission was authorized to investigate, paid for out of the public purse. According to some of the findings, torture did take place. So an apology should be made and those people should probably be compensated. But for the Conservatives, only the end result matters. As for the rest, they will never apologize or compensate anyone. It does not matter, regardless of the fact that a commission was created and paid for using public money.

The timeframe needed to do this was important, because it allowed them to stall for time. The rest is not important, since the Conservatives were not present to witness the torture. If they see it with their own eyes, only then will they offer any compensation. As I said at the beginning, this clearly shows the Conservative philosophy: they want results at any cost, and do not care about anything else.

[Committees of the House, December 3rd, 2009]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question.

The Conservatives' treatment of all torture files is symptomatic. The committee report simply recommended that the government issue clear directives to all organizations in a position to interrogate witnesses, whose safety we must ensure.

This is proof that they do not care what goes on. They want testimony and results. Once again, it is a matter of public pressure. The Conservatives' way of doing things is very simple: they use the media to control their image and public opinion. Their goal is to ensure that their political party benefits as much as possible and that the public finds out as little as possible.

There is a reason they did not want to hand over the files. Because of public pressure and for purely partisan reasons, they did hand over some of the files, but they are still hiding the most important information. And that is what they will keep doing.

The Conservatives are not interested in changing their philosophy. They probably believe that the means employed by security forces are unimportant and that only the end matters. They do not think that it is important for us to respect our obligations under international agreements on the treatment of prisoners. It therefore comes as no surprise that significant portions of the documents we were given were blacked out. That is how they operate.

[Committees of the House, December 3rd, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Bloc Québécois regarding the report of the Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is an interesting debate in the House today. I do not serve on this committee, and so I had another look at this report that was produced in June 2009. I see why there was interest in having this debate here today.

Some of my Bloc Québécois colleagues serve on this committee, including the member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. Those who know him know that he is a distinguished lawyer who was the attorney general of Quebec when he was a member of the National Assembly. My colleague from Ahuntsic, a well-known criminologist, also serves on the committee. Anyone who is familiar with her work knows that she has written extensively on the subject of street gangs. She not only tackles the problem of street gangs, but also proposes solutions to the issue. In addition, she has always been interested in human rights issues.

In reading the report, I was able to better understand the intentions of the committee members at the time, why it is being brought back to the House today, and also the Conservative philosophy behind the position they defended in committee.

The report reviewed the findings and recommendations arising from the Iacobucci and O'Connor inquiries. Mr. Speaker, I know that you are familiar with all of these reports, but for those listening, I want to point out that the Iacobucci inquiry was an internal inquiry into the actions of Canadian officials in relation to Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad Abou-Elmaati and Muayyed Nureddin. The O'Connor inquiry looked into the actions of Canadian officials in relation to Maher Arar. These cases were very important in terms of the government's foreign policy and how the Conservative government and the Government of Canada treated Canadian citizens who experienced difficulties with foreign authorities. That brings me back to the committee's analysis and, most importantly, its findings and recommendations.

The first recommendation called on the government to recognize the urgency of the situation by immediately implementing all of the recommendations from the O'Connor inquiry, the one in relation to Maher Arar. The committee found it regrettable that the government had not yet established the national security review framework recommended by Justice O’Connor. After hearing from the majority of witnesses, the committee determined that the implementation of the recommendations from the policy review report would give Canadians assurance that the actions of national security departments and agencies were in compliance with the law. That was the main objective. I will read the recommendation:

The Committee reiterates the recommendation made in its report presented to the House of Commons on January 30, 2007, and recommends that the Government of Canada recognize the urgency of the situation by immediately implementing all the recommendations from the Commission of Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Maher Arar.

In June 2009, the committee resurrected the O'Connor inquiry's recommendations, which had been submitted in the January 2007 report. It is important to bring this up again today to show that, first, the government has not yet implemented the committee's June 2009 recommendations, and second and more importantly, the government expressed a dissenting opinion. The committee submitted a majority report, but a minority, the Conservatives, produced a dissenting opinion. That means that the Conservative members did not agree with the committee's recommendations. I will come back to that.

That is why it is so important today to show that even though the committee submitted a majority report with recommendations, the inevitable outcome has been that the government, which expressed a dissenting opinion, has no interest in implementing the report's recommendations.

This means we must find out why the Conservatives decided to submit a dissenting opinion and why they decided not to act on the June 2009 committee report.

The second recommendation states:

The Committee recommends that the Government of Canada immediately issue regular public reports on the progress made in implementing the findings and recommendations arising from the Commission of Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Maher Arar and the Internal Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad Abou-Elmaati and Muayyed Nureddin.

The reports should have been made public in order to demonstrate that these people did not suffer irreparable harm at the hands of the government. It seems clear that the government decided not to publicly announce all of the progress made because, once again, it wanted to hide the documents.

This brings us to the core of the report. The third recommendations states:

In consideration of the harm done to Messrs. Almalki, Abou-Elmaati and Mr. Nureddin, the Committee recommends:

that the Government of Canada officially apologize to Messrs. Almalki, Abou-Elmaati and Nureddin;

that the Government of Canada allow compensation to be paid to Messrs. Almalki, Abou-Elmaati and Nureddin as reparation for the suffering they endured and the difficulties they encountered; and

that the Government of Canada do everything necessary to correct misinformation that may exist in records administered by national security agencies in Canada or abroad with respect to Messrs. Almalki, Abou-Elmaati and Nureddin and members of their families.

Clearly, the reputations of these individuals have suffered considerable harm. The committee found that the government made a mistake and should correct that mistake by officially apologizing. That was a recommendation. It will come as no surprise that the Conservatives had a dissenting opinion and ignored that recommendation. Their failure to acknowledge the harm done to our citizens is an affront to rights and freedoms, but that is the Conservative way.

Despite the Conservative rhetoric when it comes time to show some respect for human rights, this is just further proof that they really do not respect those rights.

The fourth recommendation is very important in light of the debates of these past few days, because it recommends adopting an unequivocal position on torture. This report was published in June. It took a few months to draft it. I will read the recommendation:

The committee recommends that the Government of Canada issue a clear ministerial direction against torture and the use of information obtained from torture for all departments and agencies responsible for national security. The ministerial direction must clearly state that the exchange of information with countries is prohibited when there is a credible risk that it could lead, or contribute, to the use of torture.

I am not a member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, but the fact that the Conservative MPs issued a dissenting opinion on this recommendation is disturbing. It shows that everything the government has been doing in the past few weeks to hide the documents on the torture of Afghan detainees from the Standing Committee on National Defence is symptomatic. It is a Conservative syndrome. They see no torture and hear no torture, therefore there is no torture. Only those who are present can determine that there is torture. If there is no video evidence of torture, then there is no torture.

That is the heart of today's debate. I watched the Conservatives tear their hair out saying that today's debate would delay all the big, fine decisions they have to make. They have made some very serious decisions nonetheless.

Once again, they gave a dissenting opinion on recommendation 4, which reads as follows:

The Committee recommends that the Government of Canada issue a clear ministerial directive against torture and the use of information obtained from torture for all departments and agencies responsible for national security.

When I read that in the report, I remembered that the Conservative Party had issued a dissenting opinion on recommendation 4. That gives me a better understanding of the Conservative ideology, which comes from the Republicans in the U.S.: “If we don't see it, it ain't happening”. It is a bit like the boxer who told his trainer that someone was hitting him. The trainer answered that no one was hitting him, no one could see him and no one was touching him. The boxer asked the trainer to check with the referee, because he could feel someone touching him. That is the reality. That is the Conservative approach. They cannot see or feel anything, but meanwhile, people are being tortured. In order to admit that torture is taking place, all the Conservative members would have to see acts of torture with their own eyes at the same time.

This attitude comes from the Conservatives' right-wing ideology. Today, this whole debate is being brought to the House of Commons in connection with the June 2009 report. The government has not acted on this report. But even worse, the Conservatives had a dissenting opinion on recommendation 4, which recommended:

that the Government of Canada issue a clear ministerial directive against torture and the use of information obtained from torture for all departments and agencies responsible for national security. The ministerial directive must clearly state that the exchange of information with countries is prohibited when there is a credible risk that it could lead, or contribute, to the use of torture.

As we can see, in June 2009, the Conservatives did not agree with this recommendation. Obviously, this tells us even more about how they handle all the cases of torture of Afghan detainees.

The fifth recommendation was as follows:

The Committee recommends, once again, that Bill C-81, introduced in the 38th Parliament, An Act to Establish the National Security Committee of Parliamentarians, or a variation of it, be introduced in Parliament at the earliest opportunity.

Clearly, the objective was to create a parliamentary committee to review the activities of national security organizations.

When a government just does not wish to issue the directives or support a recommendation calling for clear directives, it is not unusual for a committee of parliamentarians to follow up with these organizations in the matter of the allegations or the way in which they handle all files involving our citizens who are accused of all kinds of things abroad. My colleagues on the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security and I thought this was an interesting solution.

Once again, this report expresses the findings of the majority but the minority Conservative voice has prevailed. It is no surprise that the report has not been acted on and that, inevitably, it has been shelved. That is what happened.

The Bloc Québécois is pleased to discuss this matter today. It gives us a little more insight into the Conservative philosophy, which is based on always turning a blind eye, never apologizing and, when faced with a situation where there is torture and the violation of human rights, having to be there to actually witness it. They do not even want a committee to recommend that clear directives be issued to all security services that may question witnesses. That is how they see things. There is the Conservative view of things and the humanitarian view of things, and the Bloc Québécois has always defended the latter. We have always been strong defenders of justice.

We want every person who commits a crime to be punished. However, when someone is wrongly accused of having committed a crime, they deserve an apology. Torture must not be used; it is straight out of the Middle Ages. I apologize for pushing this, but it really is an outdated way of doing things. There are ways to obtain information that are more respectful of human rights. That is how the Bloc Québécois wants things to work.

Today's debate was very important, and it showed that the Conservatives do not want to discuss governance problems related to torture. The government is not at all willing to bring the facts to light or to prevent these kinds of things from happening.

The Bloc Québécois still supports this report. Our colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin was once the attorney general of Quebec. He was one of the instigators of Opération printemps 2001, which targeted organized crime in Quebec. He was the minister at the time. This operation was made possible thanks to the Bloc Québécois, which was in favour of amending the Criminal Code to reverse the burden of proof. Criminals were then required to prove that their money had been earned legitimately. Opération printemps 2001 dealt a serious blow to organized crime.

The Bloc's position will always be the same: we believe that we must fight criminals and anyone who attacks our freedoms. But in doing so, we must respect human rights. We must not torture people. We are capable of holding these debates in a way that respects human rights.

[Infrastructure, December 2nd, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, in its fourth report, the government reiterated that infrastructure projects not approved by January 29, 2010, will not be funded by the infrastructure stimulus fund.

The Fédération québécoise des municipalités and the Union des municipalités du Québec fear that many infrastructure projects in Quebec will not be funded if the federal government insists on maintaining these arbitrary deadlines.

Given that the federal government is partially responsible for the delays, and in order to prevent abuses, does the government plan to show some flexibility?

[Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, November 30th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Bloc Québécois about private member's Bill C-475, An Act to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (methamphetamine and ecstasy).

I would like to begin by saying that the Bloc Québécois recognizes that methamphetamine and ecstasy use is a serious issue. The Bloc recognizes that these drugs are very bad for people's health, especially young people, and our party sympathizes with the families of victims of addiction to these drugs.

We agree with Bill C-475 in principle, but we are concerned that it may not complement existing legislation.

I should point out that existing legislation covers the production of all illegal drugs. As I have said before in the House, many of the Conservatives' justice bills are introduced simply for electoral purposes. We have to get to the bottom of things, and that is what the Bloc Québécois will do in committee. We will take a close look at how this bill can add to the existing regime.

Bill C-475 amends the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to prohibit a person from possessing, producing, selling or importing any substance, device or other thing intended for use in producing or trafficking in methamphetamine or ecstasy.

The scope of the bill was expanded to include ecstasy and a minimum sentence of 10 years less a day. This is in line with the Conservatives' preference for replacing judges with laws so that they do not have to replace existing judges with new right-wing ones who share the Conservatives' ideology.

The bill proposes adding the following subsection to the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

The Controlled Drugs and Substances Act is amended by adding the following after section 7:

7.1 (1) No person shall possess, produce, sell or import anything knowing that it will be used to produce or traffic in a substance referred to in item 18 of Schedule I or subitem 1(9) of Schedule III.

it would also add a second subsection:

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than ten years less a day.

This bill also contains a coordinating amendment in the case that Bill C-15 receives royal assent.

The House has already unanimously agreed to provisions in Bill C-15. The Bloc Québécois supports measures that give real results on the ground. But in the meantime, we must ensure that there is coordination between the measures of Bill C-475 and Bill C-15, which the government has already introduced.

Bill C-424, a private member's bill introduced by another member in the House, read a bit differently. The word “ecstasy” has been added to the definition, and the Bloc Québécois is in favour of that.

Ecstasy and methamphetamine are drugs that are harmful to a person's health, and they are highly addictive. In Quebec, these drugs are gaining in popularity throughout the community. In schools, they are as accessible to young people as cigarettes, and are often available as early as the elementary grades. That is terrible. Another problem is that nowadays it is impossible to know what these drugs are made up of.

To make more money, manufacturers usually mix the drugs with other lesser quality ingredients. Everyone knows that there is money to be made in drugs. People are making a profit. These drugs are harmful to the health of those who use them.

According to a Health Canada study carried out with the Sûreté du Québec, between June 2007 and July 2008, 54% of tablets did not contain what was claimed. Other products had been added.

For example, 80% of ecstasy tablets are cut with one or more other drugs, including methamphetamine. This is what creates dependence. Because the content of these drugs is unknown, it is difficult to predict how they will affect people. In addition, an overdose of these drugs, pure or not, can lead to death in some cases.

Often, users take these drugs for fun, thinking there is no danger. But these drugs are cut with other substances so that users will turn into addicts. The dealers' goal is to have these people become addicted to drugs. Often, the drug trade is controlled by organized crime groups such as street gangs, biker gangs and the mafia. That is the problem. These people are not selling drugs to benefit users' health, but for their own financial gain. That is what is so terrible. Often, people become addicted to these substances, and in some cases that addiction leads to death. That is why we must tackle this problem.

The Bloc Québécois has always stood up for this in this House. The Bloc is the first party that really introduced a bill to go after organized crime groups by reversing the burden of proof. Previously, when criminal gangs were charged and appeared in court, it was up to the Crown to prove that the money and property they had accumulated had come from the sale of illicit property, undeclared goods or drugs. Now, the burden of proof is reversed, which has made it possible to seize a large amount of property and goods from organized crime groups.

In recent years, the media have given a lot of attention to all the seizures that have been made not only by the Sûreté du Québec—particularly in the spring of 2001—but also by the RCMP and other police forces in Canada. These seizures were made possible when the House of Commons passed the Bloc Québécois bill.

With regard to the serious impact of these drugs and their use, I would like to draw members' attention to a very timely article published in Le Soleil on November 17, 2009 and another article that appeared in the Journal de Québec on July 6, 2009, entitled “The shocking increase in ecstasy”. This article stated the following:

In a report released last week, the UN stated that Canada has become the leading producer of the drug ecstasy in North America.

Here is more bad news: generally speaking, drugs like ecstasy are consumed close to where they are produced and in fact, statistics show that ecstasy consumption is on the rise in Canada and Quebec.

Canada has the terrible reputation of being North America's main supplier of ecstasy. This problem needs to be addressed.

The article goes on to say:

Its users describe it as a soft drug, but that is not really the case. Ecstasy is one of the new synthetic drugs, the so-called designer drugs, that have emerged as a result of advances in chemistry. The ecstasy molecule was first isolated in 1912 in the context of research aimed at producing an appetite suppressant...

Like all other drugs, ecstasy affects the nervous system, and like cocaine, heroin, nicotine or alcohol, ecstasy can create dependency in users.

That is the primary, most important goal for criminal groups: to create a dependency. This concerns us because its users believe they can use it for pleasure and that it does not create a dependency. However, the UN study cited in this Journal de Québec article from July 6, 2009, is clear. I will refrain from reading the entire article, but it gave a detailed analysis of the drug, its components, how it works in terms of consumption, and the dangers associated with it. The article concluded by calling it the gateway to hell.

Ecstasy-related deaths are not as common as deaths associated with many other drugs...

However, what appeared to be the gateway to paradise could in fact be the gateway to hell...

That is how the article concluded, and that is what those watching us at home must remember.

The Bloc Québécois will work hard to move this bill forward in committee.

[Child Protection Act (Online Sexual Exploitation), November 26th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

Before I came to the House of Commons, I was head of the Union des municipalités du Québec. Quebec has the Sûreté du Québec, and municipal police forces, as well, which are also important. Successive ministers of public safety in Quebec have always said that to strike the right balance, it was necessary for the Montreal urban community to have one-third of the police officers, the Sûreté du Québec to have one-third and the other municipal police forces to have one-third.

That is the reality. My colleague asked a good question. We are probably going to pass a law, but will there be enough money so that the police forces can work together? In order to combat cybercrime and child sexual exploitation on the Internet, there has to be enough funding.

As I said earlier, the Conservatives' goals are to score political points in the short term in order to boost their popularity in the polls. They have introduced a bill, but what will happen once it is passed? It will be difficult to implement, and it will take money. The necessary funding will have to be in place so that all the police forces can work together. In Quebec, the Sûreté du Québec and the municipal police forces will have to get their share in order to combat cybercrime against children.

[Child Protection Act (Online Sexual Exploitation), November 26th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is right. Because of how they do things, we have to analyze and pick apart every justice bill the Conservatives introduce. Often the only thing they are trying to do, especially when it comes to justice, is win the public opinion battle so they can go up in the polls. That is how the Conservatives operate.

That has never been the Bloc Québécois' position. Everyone knows that we have always been very respectful. We have always stood up for Quebec. We have always opposed all forms of pedophilia and child abuse. We have always been consistent in our stances. We have always trusted our judges, and we have always believed in our justice system.

Judges have been appointed. Every case is different, and we have always had faith in the justice system. We have never been drawn into the media storm whipped up around certain cases. That is not what the Bloc Québécois has chosen to do. We have always been against torture, not just when the media are paying attention, like the Conservatives. Since first coming here, and for as long as we are here, we have always been and will always be against the torture of children and prisoners. That has always been our position, and we believe that it is consistent with the values of Quebeckers. That is what we have stood up for every day in this House, and that is what we will continue to do, as long as I am here, at any rate.

[Child Protection Act (Online Sexual Exploitation), November 26th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is absolutely right, and that is why the committee will carefully examine this bill. Our problem is that we have charters of rights and freedoms in both Quebec and Canada. In both jurisdictions, there are website operators, and these businesspeople will say that they also have rights and freedoms. So what I was saying is that perhaps the charter of rights and freedoms will have to take a back seat to the prevention of sexual exploitation of children on the Internet.

This is an issue that could probably be resolved very quickly but, considering the laws that protect our rights and freedoms, we will have to examine this bill carefully, so that everyone, including website operators, understands its objective.