Paul Szabo

[Disposition of an act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, if the member is going to debate it, he better include all the facts.

In addition, there is a permanent income tax cut of 16.5%. The $1,000 rebate is for the first year. There is also the GST credit that Canadians get now on their tax returns. Ninety-three per cent of Ontarians are going to be better off under this system.

I do not know why the member would say that there is only the $1,000 rebate, without including the fact that there is a permanent 16.5% reduction in personal income taxes which is there year after year. If the member is going to debate it, he should put all the facts on the table. He should not be coy. It is okay to tell the truth.

[Disposition of an act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, I am not sure if the member is aware, but she may want to comment on the following. The law in the Province of Ontario is that the government of the day cannot spend money on advertising its legislation until after that legislation has been passed.

As a consequence, the Government of Ontario is seeking to pass its bill to harmonize the provincial tax and the GST by Christmas so that it can start to lay out for the residents the details of the bill, including that 93% of Ontario taxpayers will get a permanent income tax cut of some 16.5%, as well as a $1,000 tax credit and a new refundable sales tax credit on the increase in taxes.

Those are a couple of the items it has to undertake. It will take some time, but it is more of the story of getting significant income tax cuts, even though there will be additional taxes on certain individual items.

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, the member is a very persuasive member. She does her homework and argues her case well.

With regard to the closure motion, which is the issue before us now, the member probably is aware that the province of Ontario has indicated that it wants to have its legislation in place and passed before Christmas, so that it can start delivering income tax cuts to Ontario residents on January 1 even though the HST would not come in until July 1.

I would suggest to the member that there is probably a reason why the federal government, in terms of its arrangements with Ontario, has acceded to moving this now even though the enabling legislation, amendments to the Excise Tax Act, is not necessary until March 31 according to the memorandum of agreement. That certainly is one reason for the closure motion. In my own view, if this is going to help economic recovery in any province or any territory in Canada, it is an important consideration.

My question for the member has to do specifically with the Quebec situation. She indicated that the discussions were around more fully harmonizing the tax systems in Quebec. I am not sure that I fully understand what is not there yet. It would appear that there is still some disagreement as to whether or not there is full harmonization. I wonder if the member would care to elaborate a bit further.

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, I think by now those who might be viewing the debates are probably totally confused about who is implementing the tax. It is the provinces. It is the province of Ontario and the province of B.C.

What the federal Parliament is doing now is looking at amendments to the Excise Tax Act to permit the agreements that were signed between the Government of Canada and the provinces to harmonize their taxes.

The member was using the words “tax grab”, but he knows the truth is that Ontario's revenues will go down over this. They are not going up. It is not a tax grab. They know its deficit is going to be some $24 billion. They know that it will create over 500,000 new jobs for people who do not have jobs today. They know it will create capital investment of $47 billion, which is necessary to sustain those jobs and help our economy to recover. They know the income tax cuts of 16.5% for the majority of Canadians, means that 93% of Canadians will be better off, will offset any additional cost if they reduce the number of exemptions.

It is easy to come up with a list that there is going to be a little more here, but not one of those members said in his or her speeches, not one of them yet admitted that there would be income tax reductions commencing on January 1, 2010, even though the HST does not come in until July 1, 2010. Why is the member not prepared to tell all—

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, as the member indicated, they are terrified of something they have not seen. It could very well be that they are being given misinformation. In fact, the revenue of the province of Ontario will go down, but the details are at the provincial level.

Nothing we vote on here will have anything to do with what is taxed and what is not taxed. The member should admit it. That is the issue. He should not be misleading people into thinking that there is something we can do here. It is a deal between the federal government and the province.

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, it is very important for members to reflect the mood of the people. After listening to a number of speeches, the fact is that nobody in this place has seen the legislation from the province of Ontario or the province of B.C. Ontario's legislation is going to be passed by Christmas. The B.C. legislation probably will not be passed until March. It will be a while before the final deal.

I wonder if the member has seen the memorandum of agreement between the Government of Canada and the Province of British Columbia. Could he indicate to the House what specific provisions there are with regard to the enactment of the bill?

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Madam Speaker, there is no question that Canadians in Ontario and British Columbia are in need of a fair bit of information about exactly what is being proposed. I do not believe that either province has put out its legislation yet to get the details. It is very likely that people's impressions are based simply on the information they are getting from those who are making statements now.

Interestingly enough, if we said “tax grab”, describing the HST in Ontario and then we asked people in Ontario how they felt about a tax grab, they would say they do not like it. All of a sudden there would be a very large number of people who do not like it, even though there is not a piece of legislation out there.

If a person were to go to the Ontario government website, in which it lays out the framework of it, the representation is that the Government of Ontario will actually have reduced revenue under the harmonized system. It will go down. Its deficit will be some $24 billion. This initiative is a job creator and a business investment creator.

Would the member care to admit whether or not he has seen the Ontario or the B.C. legislation? If not, how can he assess what the impact will be on people?

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, the reason is quite simple. It is because the income tax cuts that the Province of Ontario is going to be extending to all taxpayers in Ontario are going to be effective January 1, 2010. That means that this House has to ratify the agreement and the bill to amend the Excise Tax Act.

This, to me, is part of the economic recovery for Ontario. If Ontario is doing better, Canada is doing better.

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I can only speculate. I do not think that the members are looking for reasons for them to support this motion and the bill on the agreement.

I think the important thing here is to be honest with Canadians about what is happening and why. If we look at the circumstances that all our provinces are finding themselves in, the challenges of job creation, business investment and reducing personal taxes are all extremely important.

I could put it all on the table, look at it, and ask people if they would be prepared to take an income tax cut that on average, for most people in Ontario, would be a 10% cut. For those with lower incomes, it would be a 16.5% personal income tax cut. Would that be a good thing? What would people say if they had to pay a little bit more on a product because the government is trying to make the taxation system a little simpler, but they got the tax credits and the personal income tax cuts? If they looked in their pockets and found that they had more money in their pockets after government made this efficiency change in the tax systems of Canada, would that be okay?”

I have found that a lot of people did not know about that. That is what is happening now. The bill has not passed yet. The province has not yet passed its bill. I do not know on what basis people are being asked for their opinions, when the bill is not even before the Ontario legislature.

I believe members should be careful about what they say is going to happen, because it is not--

[Disposition of an Act to amend the Excise Tax Act, December 7th, 2009]

Mr. Speaker, I am not afraid to stand up in the House and give my opinion to the member. I can tell the member that the Government of Canada and the Province of Ontario entered into an agreement to move forward with this.

In my view, this has an awful lot to do with the economic recovery of the Province of Ontario with regard to creating jobs and increasing business investment. In fact, 93% of Ontario taxpayers will get a personal income tax cut, and in fact all Ontario taxpayers will see a 16.5% cut in the income tax rate on the first $37,000 of their taxable incomes. That will be the lowest rate among all the provinces in Canada. Ontario families and individuals with incomes up to $80,000 will get an average personal income tax cut of 10%.

These are the things that have to be taken into consideration. If I wanted to argue the other side of it, I would say it is increasing a tax here. However, if I put everything on the table and look at it carefully, I know that the vast majority, 93% of Canadians, will have more money in their pockets after this measure is implemented than they do now.