Peter MacKay

[Criminal Code, March 14th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, sometimes it is a daunting and intimidating task to follow my colleague who has a wealth of parliamentary experience and certainly continually displays a great deal of common sense. His cup runneth over in that regard.

My colleague and the mover of the motion similarly comes before parliament with motions such as this one that bring about change which would invoke a real impact in the important and significant community of firefighters who, as he has indicated, support him in this endeavour and for good reason. There is very much the motive behind this motion to bring about greater attention and a greater focus on deterrence for those who engage in a reckless activity such as setting a fire, arsonists who put lives at risk just by virtue of that act.

The firefighters are the front line who have to respond to that sort of reckless activity. This motion would call for a change to section 231 of the criminal code to amend the definition of first degree murder.

I listened with interest to my colleague, the parliamentary secretary. He has expressed, as he should, on behalf of the Department of Justice the constitutional concerns. We know time and time again that those concerns are real and are there. Charter constipation constantly arises in these debates, except in the case of Bill C-36 where it seemed to be cast to the wind. Yet this issue is really about putting greater emphasis on protecting the lives of firefighters.

What simpler message would come from this motion? As the member and previous speakers have pointed out, there is specific recognition in the criminal code for police officers, constables, sheriffs, deputy sheriffs and others working in the preservation and maintenance of public peace. Certainly firefighters would fit into that category.

There is some idea that there will be greater deterrence because clearly the penalties for first degree murder are the highest available now in the criminal code, life imprisonment. This is the general and specific deterrent that would come from such an amendment to the criminal code.

My colleague in the New Democratic Party from Winnipeg questioned why this would not happen, why things do not happen around here. He spoke of his suspicions. I will perhaps be a little more blunt. Sometimes there is a faceless, guileless guiding hand at the PMO that rears its head every now and again. I cannot imagine that there would be some intent to scuttle an effort such as this one, an effort that is aimed purely out of the goodness and the goodwill that come from such a motion.

This type of change would have an impact. It would allow the courts to react in a more significant way when faced with these situations. That is not to suggest that this is a simple case by any means. Each case is inevitably decided on its facts, on its merits. Yet what is behind the message in this motion is that offenders who recklessly go out and cause harm by way of setting fires, by way of putting death and destruction in their path, will face real repercussions and will face the jeopardy of going to prison for the rest of their lives.

A minimum sentence of life does not always mean life, as we have seen in many instances sadly. Yet including it as an aggravating circumstance, as suggested by my friend in the Bloc, might also be one of the ways in which it could be incorporated and by which we could recognize in legislation by codifying the Criminal Code of Canada that firefighters deserve this special recognition by virtue of the important role they play in society and the important tasks they undertake every day when they go to work at the station, put on their gear, ride trucks to fires and save lives.

It would show that their government, their country, their countrymen and women are in their corner as well. It would respect and recognize what they do and the jeopardy in which their lives are placed by virtue of their job.

The motion is very admirable in its intent. I daresay there is no hesitation on behalf of members of the Conservative coalition to support the member in what he is seeking to do. There are offences that already have these special attachments, hate crime being one that was alluded to earlier, where a strict and strident response is available to a judge to mete out in response to circumstances that come before the court.

That flexibility exists. Why on earth would we deny the opportunity to codify a recognition of firefighters? In particular the obvious allusion has been made several times to what happened on September 11, those horrific circumstances and the renewed vigour with which firefighters across the country and around the world became the focal point of emergency situations. Society was reminded in those dire circumstances what huge risk, what incredible sacrifice exists in that vocation.

The range of options currently available for the crime of arson as an indictable offence go up to the sentencing maximum of 14 years. The motion intends to expand that envelope. It does not say that in every case this will happen, surely not. The burden of proof will still remain with the crown. The police forces in their investigative efforts must still produce evidence before a court that is admissible. Then a conviction would be rendered and the judge would have this sentencing option available to him or her.

I agree with the parliamentary secretary that there is an element tantamount to an end run around the issue of intent which is somewhat problematic. That is why I agree with the common sense and useful suggestion that perhaps this is an issue which should be referred to the justice committee for examination.

It is an issue on which we could hear from the fleet of government lawyers available, but I would suggest as well lawyers practising in the field. More important, we should hear from the firefighters lobby because I am sure there is ample research and interest within that community to have the opportunity to make the motion a reality.

Raising the bar of accountability is part and parcel of what this criminal code amendment would do. On the surface it is never a bad idea to have greater accountability and responsibility. It is something we should strive for and something we should encourage in most legislative intents.

There are already references to the fact that not every fire is one that is set with the intent to cause bodily harm or murder. Sadly there are children who often engage in this activity. I think of a recent occurrence in Lunenburg county where Canada's oldest church was reduced to rubble because of a fire on Halloween night which was suspected to have been caused by children.

With the jeopardy in mind that can befall a person charged with arson we have to be somewhat cautious in making any kind of a criminal code amendment which mandates exactly what the punishment will be. This is not an amendment which mandates that in every instance there will be a penalty of life imprisonment. Surely not every fire is set to inflict harm on a person.

In conclusion I say to the hon. member and to members present that we support his effort. I am encouraged by the level of support that has been expressed here and by those who have contacted the member and encouraged him to pursue it further.

I hope there will be genuine goodwill and intent on the part of the government to bring this matter before the justice committee. I hope we will have an opportunity to see the issue through to fruition to allow firefighters to clearly receive the signal we want them to receive. We value and cherish the work they do and respect the task they have each and every day in their lives as they protect Canadians everywhere.

[Veterans Affairs, March 14th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Ontario appeal court issued a scathing ruling against the government saying that disabled veterans may receive as much as $4 billion. In a written decision the Department of Veterans Affairs was condemned for mismanagement of pensions since 1919 and the judge called it reprehensible.

Will the Minister of Veterans Affairs intervene to afford aging veterans their dignity and security, or will we be treated again to the usual government tactic of putting principle behind procedural delay through appeals? Why will he not act now? Why will he not do the right thing?

[Fisheries, March 13th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I rise again to bring attention to the plight which has befallen the historic fishing town of Canso, Nova Scotia.

The only major industry in the town, Seafreez Foods, remains closed due to the lack of quota. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans could put the people back to work by ensuring access to resource and accepting the 3O redfish proposal.

While the town is struggling the real tragedy lies in the human impact of a permanent plant closure. Loss of livelihood in this case dooms the town. In Canso four out of five children are using the breakfast program at the elementary school while 23 properties will go up for sale because of tax arrears and last week the only sit down restaurant in town joined other businesses in going under.

Recent census figures indicate that Guysborough county, where Canso is located, has the third highest figures of out migration in Canada. Monday evening villagers gathered for an ecumenical service at the Star of the Sea Church, not to mourn but to pray for help, hope and inspiration for their town.

The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans very much holds the fate of fellow Nova Scotians in his hands. I urge the minister in the strongest possible way to come to the aid of Canso in its time of crisis.

[Point of Order, March 12th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very closely to my colleague when he outlined some of his government's responses.

Some of his comments run directly contrary to the findings and recommendations of the Senate report. In particular it speaks of the hiring and handling of shipments at ports not being in the hands of the port authorities and often not in the hands of individual companies. In many cases it is in the hands of the union. There is literally no guarantee of a national standard if there is no national standard pertaining to security at the ports.

I am glad he mentioned the port of Halifax. Given the downloading of responsibilities and the cuts to Ports Canada, policing, the military, our coast guard, all of it has an eventual cost in terms of our ability to provide security.

The municipal police in Halifax have been doing an extraordinary job under the circumstances. The reality is they have responsibilities for the entire municipality of Halifax. If they get a call about a break and enter they are going to leave the port.

The direct involvement of a full time ports police presence with specialized training that has jurisdiction from customs and revenue, immigration, the criminal code and jurisdiction over the court itself, to mention but a few, would surely provide a better level of security. The member also mentioned fencing and some of the other physical barriers that could be put in place, as well as cameras.

Does the member not agree that a specialized police force could provide a service tailored to ports and the specific threat that is posed at the ports?

[Point of Order, March 12th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his participation in the debate. He always brings an interesting perspective to this. I want to draw his attention back to the subject at hand, and that is this issue of port security, not just maritime ports but all ports of entry.

I want to draw his attention to the Senate committee report, which I think he is familiar with. In that report, after the committee heard from a number of informed witnesses on the ground, it mentioned that organized crime was flourishing at many Canadian ports. The report stated specifically that it creates “fertile ground for terrorist activity...and shipment of weapons and other agents of mass destruction”. The issue was so serious that it was unanimously recommended that an immediate public inquiry into select ports be done and be done quickly.

I wonder if my colleague would agree that a broad public inquiry, wherein we could hear from the interested parties, from those actually carrying out the day to day administration of justice at ports, at our border and in airports as well as other aspects of national security, including our military, would be a useful exercise. Would it be a useful exercise to call for a public inquiry and would his party would support that call?

[Correctional Service Canada, March 12th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, Correctional Service Canada has budgeted close to $350 million for the construction of new condo style prison accommodations. History has proven that the open style of incarceration is less secure, more luxurious but done in the name of rehabilitation.

Could the solicitor general explain to the House and to members of the Canadian Police Association who are visiting today what he learned from his meetings with the police, not what he told them, and why his department and his government continually put public protection behind Liberal policies like statutory and early release, cascading prison classifications, prisoners' rights and club fed conditions?

[Supply, March 12th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, just a supplementary to that question: With respect to the level of security that currently exists, or, one might say, the lack thereof, it became very obvious in the study put forward by the Senate, but other inquiries into the issue of security on the ports revealed that many private security companies, port authorities, stevedores and, as he mentioned, unions, had a disproportionately high number of employees with criminal records. That is not to suggest that anybody who has a criminal record is a security threat. However, it certainly highlights the need for a certain standard to be applied, and I would suggest nationally.

The concern here was that many of those individuals might also be susceptible to intimidation because their criminal records could be used against them or subsequently they may have had past affiliations with organized crime. I know that in the port of Montreal this is particularly acute, as we have seen in other ports as well, including those in my home province of Nova Scotia.

I would suggest that municipal police and the RCMP can and do play an active role in background checks, but does my colleague agree that a national standard has to be put in place with respect to background checks to ensure that for those who are working on the ports, whether they be in that capacity for the port authority or for the company, there has to be some standard applied to ensure that those individuals, because of their past affiliation with criminal activity and their links to organized crime, are not vulnerable either to being brought into the process of theft on the port or to becoming complicit and simply being paid not to be at a certain point at a certain time?

[Supply, March 12th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, does the hon. member agree that what is needed is more infrastructure?

Not only is it needed at border crossings but I would suggest the same applies in many instances to the ports where there is entry from the water. Part of the recommendation coming from the other place included references to things like closed circuit cameras and fencing.

Similarly is there not more that can be done in terms of prevention and background searches? I am speaking in particular about having a screening system in place where individuals might be identified, particularly when container ships come into port. Could there not be an effort made to co-ordinate those entities coming into the country and would this not also tie into the problem of information sharing? As we all know, part of the overall picture of which my colleague speaks is in terms of information sharing between CSIS and the RCMP, but I would suggest it also includes immigration, customs and other countries.

[Supply, March 12th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's remarks with interest. I know he has a specific interest as well in domestic policing.

We know that currently the Canadian Police Association and the Ontario Police Association are on the Hill participating in their annual lobby day. One of their great concerns, as is a concern of my friend, is that the Canadian government, the current Liberal administration, is not doing enough to protect Canadian citizens after the fact, after police have done their good work, apprehended a criminal, the criminal has had the benefit of due process and has been incarcerated. There is a real concern on the part of the police that we do more to ensure that we take every precaution before releasing an individual back on the street.

I would also like to ask him about his personal position and his party's position with regard to the disbanding of the ports police by the Liberal government in 1997. The specialized service provided by ports police looked at every individual case with a view to prevention as opposed to simply apprehending, as is often the case unfortunately with federal, provincial and municipal police. They tend to be more reactive as opposed to putting the emphasis on being preventive. That is no ill-reflection on them. It is merely the reality and the limitations placed on them by resources, which is another element of this equation. They have been forced to do more with less because of government cutbacks. The priority that municipal, provincial and federal police forces put on the ports is an additional responsibility, that is it is an add-on to what they are currently encumbered and mandated to respond to.

Would my friend mind responding to that?

[Supply, March 12th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I draw the attention of the Chair and members present to the fact that the latter part of the votable motion calls upon the government to reassert parliament's relevance in addressing these and other public policy matters. I would suggest that very much includes and encompasses the subject matter of parliamentary reform.

I want to follow the instructions of the Chair and I want to commend the member for Scarborough--Rouge River because I think he is a very talented and very gifted parliamentarian who has made a significant contribution to this place. I acknowledge his commitment not only to democratic reform but to security issues in particular, something he has taken a very sincere and very concerted effort to pursue.

I draw him back to some of the comments he referred to in the Senate report, in particular those surrounding the concerns expressed by the Senate over the number of containers which come into the country and the number of containers which are actually checked. I believe those statistics reveal that in Halifax, Vancouver and Montreal, the major ports of entry, they were somewhere between 1% and 3%.

There is an obvious problem that needs to be addressed with greater equipment. There is a problem that needs to be addressed with those doing the checking. The member referred to the disproportionate number of checkers and employees in the ports that have criminal records. That is a huge concern. I would also add the fact that the port authority is not the one that is doing the checking. In many cases it is private companies that hire security firms.

Would he not agree that we have to make a more concentrated effort either to improve the ability of current municipal police and the RCMP to address the situation or perhaps revisit the specialized role of the port authority or port police?