Peter MacKay

[Canada Elections Act, February 22nd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to take part in the debate and to note that this is an important piece of legislation. It is, in essence, the rules of engagement that apply to those who seek public office.

Although the bill has some rather particular aspects to it that are addressed in the overall scheme of things, I think it is timely, given that we have recently resumed this session of parliament and come through an election, that we look at how elections are conducted.

The bill, as has been noted, would amend the Canada Elections Act and the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act. It is a bill that, as I indicated, deals substantially with two aspects that came out of a court case in the province of Ontario.

I begin my remarks by saying that it is good to see. I say with some sarcasm that the government has not changed the way it deals with legislation such as this in parliament. It is good to see that it has remained consistent and predictable. The government has treated this legislation, like many other pieces of legislation of this type, by not consulting. That is to say that it did not go to the effort of prior consultation with political parties in order to gain consensus, which was always the practice when it came to bills of this nature. It is disappointing and yet, as I indicated, it has become somewhat an expected attitude and approach on the part of the government.

The current Speaker, the member for Kingston and the Islands, served with great distinction on a special committee on electoral reform between 1991 and 1993 when he was a member of the opposition. A committee that was chaired by Mr. Jim Hawkes, the Progressive Conservative member from Calgary at that time, studied many of the same issues that we see before us.

That committee, in coming to its conclusions, stated quite emphatically that it would not report to the Chamber unless the recommendations were endorsed by all three political parties in existence at that time. There was an effort to recognize that consensus on issues such as this are extremely important. My, how times have changed.

However, in regard to this particular piece of legislation, the electoral act, changes have come before the Chamber since 1994 time and again without prior agreement, without consensus as to the content. That very much puts the government and this legislation, sadly, on shaky ground in terms of its legitimacy.

The last legislation of this type that came before parliament, Bill C-2 as it then was, was subjected to time allocation, which is of course again a practice that we have seen far too often in the past number of years. In fact, the trigger-happy government House leader has now used time allocation 69 times. Again, my, how times change. When the government House leader was a member of the opposition, it was so offensive to him and such an affront to democracy, yet a different attitude now prevails.

Turning back to the bill itself, I must admit that the changes now before us are reasonable in their content. They are changes that result from a court case that came out of the Ontario court of appeal. It bears noting that these changes will, I believe, enhance the current legislation, although I was hoping that in this parliament the first encounter we would have on a bill such as this, the first opportunity we would have to address this issue, would be met with perhaps a different attitude so that we would be able to deal with this problem of encountering each other in a different fashion. That does not appear to be the case.

One of the major problems, which was apparent to all Canadians and all parliamentarians, in the last election was the difficulty with the permanent voters list. We have heard a litany of stories of constituents who found that when they went to vote, to exercise their democratic right, a very important right and one that we all encourage in this legislation, their names were absent or there was some anomaly like not being listed at the appropriate polling station.

We all have to be very diligent. I hope this legislation in its final draft will address some of the problems surrounding the application of the permanent voters list. There is a huge frustration, as one can appreciate, whether it be a member of the voting public from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough or from any constituency in the country, when individuals make that important statement of going to cast their ballot and arrive at a polling station only to find that for one reason or another their names are not listed.

I hope that when the bill goes to committee we will have an opportunity to delve into it in greater detail. That is not to say that this is not the proper forum to discuss some of the problems and some of the changes that could occur, but I hope that at that time in particular we will have an opportunity to pose questions to the chief electoral officer and his staff regarding some of these issues that arose during the last campaign.

From these problems and this experience, we might get some idea from Mr. Kingsley, the chief electoral officer, of the cost of creating this permanent electoral list, of the attempts that will of course follow to keep it up to date, and of the safeguards that ensure it is accurate, for this in and of itself has to be the fundamental purpose of having a permanent voters list, a list that reflects the eligible voters of the various constituencies around the country. It appears, in its current form at least, to be flawed. This is an opportunity to change that, to improve upon this permanent voters list and the efforts that were made to put this in place in the first place.

The overall amendments to the current legislation as compared to the last parliament's appear to be fairly straightforward in nature. Bill C-9 responds to the Ontario court of appeal case known as Figueroa. This case dealt with a submission on the part of the Communist Party of Canada, an argument that many of the provisions of the Canada Elections Act in its current form benefited larger political parties and therefore, by virtue of the same method, discriminated against the smaller political groupings.

With regard to the identification of candidates and political parties on the ballot, the court held that provisions of the Canada Elections Act limit identification of candidates' party affiliations on the ballot to candidates that were endorsed by organized political parties which supported 50 or more candidates in a general election.

It was found in the ruling by the majority on the court that this would infringe the charter. By virtue of its decision, the court did, as is often the case, give the Parliament of Canada an opportunity to address the issue, the anomaly, and to fix the problem.

The court felt that there was no justification, as it wrote in the ruling, for bringing the 50 candidates limit in relation to this matter or for having that in place. It discriminated against smaller political groups and was thus, in the court's opinion, not justifiable under the charter. It did not meet what has become known as the Oakes test.

This was a common sense judgment in my view, and the way in which it has been handled is the way that it should have been handled, that is, it is now back in the place where legislation is to be drafted and produced. It is back in our hands for us to do just that job.

The court put in place a time period to rewrite the applicable portion of that legislation. It set no particular guidelines in its findings with respect to the 50 candidates rule. It did not say it was too high but it did not set a bottom number either, so the current legislation produces the number of 15, which may be arbitrary. That is again something that will be examined by the committee. It is interesting to note that the number of 15 is that which was recommended by a royal commission on electoral reforms that was established after the 1988 general election.

The bill before us does in fact recommend that political parties can have their names printed under the name of the supported candidate if the nomination of 12 candidates of that party is confirmed by the chief electoral officer at the close of nominations.

At the committee I or a representative of the Progressive Conservative Party will look forward with great interest to listening to the reasons for picking this number and why it is that the government feels it is the particular number that would be defensible and charter proof in any future challenges. That is something we have to bear in mind when we put this final number in place.

I want to make a brief passing reference to the issue of Bill C-273, which was in my view quite meanspirited and a bit inflammatory in its reference to fringe parties in this Chamber. I think it is disrespectful and trivializing to introduce legislation of this sort and is purely political posturing. However, that said, I think the hon. member for Saskatoon—Humboldt, with some humility, might consider withdrawing this particular bill because of its inflammatory nature, and I think that good faith on his part might be forthcoming.

I do look forward to dealing with this particular bill when it gets to the committee and looking at the possibility of fine tuning some of the amendments.

Some of the other particular amendments that come out of this legislation deal with the advertising blackout period, which is important because of the vastness of the country, because of the time change that occurs not only on election night but in the periods before the campaign. This is also an important consideration.

There is the adjustment of expense limits for candidates should there be differences in the total number of voters between the preliminary electoral list and the revised list.

These are important rules of engagement to be governed by the legislation.

In any event, the committee will have an opportunity to look at these matters in greater detail. The committee will have an opportunity to hear from the chief electoral officer. In fact, I am sure the government House leader, who has carriage of this bill, will be an able and apt participant in those discussions.

I see that the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader is present too, and I am very hopeful that the indication that the government is very forthcoming and forthright about electoral reform also applies to parliamentary reform. I want to refer briefly to an occasion where there was an opportunity to bring about some political reform too. That was to have—

[Criminal Code, February 21st, 2001]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-275, an act to amend the Criminal Code (recruitment of children and swarming).

Mr. Speaker, once again, this bill pertains to the criminal code in its current form. I introduced the bill in the last parliament.

It would essentially amend the criminal code to include a provision that would make it illegal to elicit or recruit children to commit criminal offences.

It would also put in place a new provision of the criminal code which would prohibit the offence of swarming, which is an offence that is sadly becoming increasingly prevalent in a number of communities around the country.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

[Criminal Code, February 21st, 2001]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-274, an act to amend the Criminal Code (Order of prohibition).

Mr. Speaker, I have a bill that I think has a little more substance than the last one.

It refers to a section of the criminal code, currently section 161, which deals with an offender convicted of a sexual offence. The enactment would permit the court to make a prohibition for the offender from being in a dwelling house where the offender knows or ought to know that a person under the age of 14 is present without being in the custody or control of a person also of that age.

In essence what the bill will do is allow judges to currently expand the umbrella of protection when putting in place prohibition orders for those who have been convicted of a sexual offence.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

[Canadian Sikhs, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, we are here today to acknowledge, as part and parcel of the motion, the significant contribution that has been made by Canadian Sikhs to Canadian society and to recognize the importance of April 13 as the birthday of Khalsa .

I extend sincere congratulations to the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, a respected colleague, fellow House leader and a dean of the House of Commons, on his attempt to have the whole House support the particular motion.

As you will undoubtedly be aware, Mr. Speaker, Canada has a rich history of diversity and one that spans many religions, cultures, languages and ethnicities. I believe it is in our very best interest to support and celebrate each and every one of these diverse cultures to the extent that we recognize important religious heritage days.

Canada as a whole was built upon the efforts of immigrants, coupled with the foundation and origins of our aboriginal peoples. On this special day, April 13, Sikhs across the world celebrate Vaisakhi , the Sikh New Year. Today in Canada we have close to 300,000 Sikhs. On this day the Sikhs pay tribute to their faith, not unlike the Christian significance of Christmas, and we join in that celebration.

While the Sikh population in my constituency of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough is relatively small compared to that of more urban centres across the country, we recognize the contribution Sikhs make in each and every riding, in each and every corridor and corner of Canada.

I support the motion that has been presented to us by the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona for a number of reasons. First and foremost, Canada's diversity is only strengthened by the encouragement of all religions and ethnicities to participate fully in Canadian society and to integrate themselves further into the social fabric in our economy, in our culture and in our way of life.

By supporting resolutions such as this one we are setting a landmark example of the acceptance of religions, ethnicities and cultures in Canada, again a very fundamental founding principle that all Canadians embrace.

Second, I unequivocally support this motion, as do members of my party, as one would not question the significant contributions the Sikh community has made in Canada in the business sector, in the human rights field and in numerous other fields.

During the early settlement of this country, Sikhs laboriously and reliably worked in lumber mills and yards to better their lives and to better the lives of those in their communities. Some Sikhs eventually went on to own their own mills like the Mayo Lumber Company and the Kapoor Lumber Company in British Columbia.

The wealth accumulated from those particular businesses was used to benefit the advancement of the Sikh community on the west coast by building schools, temples, homes and other contributions. You will be the first to agree. Mr. Speaker, that this type of dedication and determination is commendable and it is a symbol to all Canadians of innovation, perseverance and entrepreneurial spirit.

During this same period Sikhs were actively promoting human rights in their new land, not only for Sikhs in Canada but for Sikhs around the world. Often we will hear about the early days when those in Sikh communities across this nation would raise money for humanitarian efforts such as natural disasters that occurred in their homeland or in other countries. Their commitment to Sikhs in this country was also equally intense.

Fighting for equality, the Sikhs were diligent in overturning and rewriting discriminatory laws that many immigrants faced when arriving on our shores. The Khalsa Diwan Society was started and led this immigration fight, lobbying both the Canadian government and the government of India for fair immigration policies. These were laudable efforts and significant accomplishments. This group was successful in finally working toward a more equitable and non-discriminatory immigration policy.

I truly believe that this community has worked hard to earn the right to call Canada their home and to be fully embraced by all Canadians. We in this parliament can take a significant and symbolic step by embracing this motion. I know there may be efforts made later to make this matter votable. We fully endorse the significance that would attach by having a vote by all parliamentarians on this motion.

I believe, like all Canadians, that anyone who pays taxes, who abides by the laws of the land, who makes and works toward a better Canada deserves the respect of all of us in the Chamber. I say this and say it in the hope that each and every member of the House of Commons will see it within themselves to support this motion and recognize the importance of April 13 to all Sikhs and to further acknowledge the importance of their spiritual symbols.

As the Sikh community grows in numbers and they continue to observe and practice the customs and traditions of their new country, as well as their former country, I believe it is only appropriate that we extend this goodwill. Through this motion and others like it, we can find a common meeting place that all Canadians, whether they be Sikh, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or those of any background, can take pride in having a sense of ownership. Mutual understanding and respect are the keys to a more balanced and solid fabric in Canada. I do not believe that Sikh Canadians, or any Canadians for that matter, should feel obliged to alter their customs or belief. These should be a source of pride and a source of beauty.

I want to record again the unequivocal support of the Progressive Conservative Party for this motion. I call upon all members of the House to do the same. It is with pride that the Progressive Conservative Party does attach itself to this particular motion. As mentioned by the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, it is a motion that originated in legislature of his home province. A Progressive Conservative government in Manitoba embraced a similar motion.

All Canadians, all religions, all spiritual beliefs should be given this significant recognition by this, the home that all Canadians should look to. The symbolism would be significant. By working together, a motion like this embraces the very essence of this country and the great culture and the cultural mosaic that has become the catchphrase for Canada.

My congratulations to the NDP member for bringing this motion forward. He will certainly have our support on this motion.

[Free Trade Area Of The Americas, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would seek consent of the House to table the documents referred to by the right hon. member for Calgary Centre with respect to the involvement of Jean Carle in the Auberge Grand-Mère file and the Business Development Bank.

[Business Development Bank, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, with evidence that has now been put before the House that clearly shows an intervention by Jean Carle on behalf of the Prime Minister to the BDC in the auberge file, could the Prime Minister tell us whether or not there has been any further intervention from himself, from Jean Carle or any other member of the Prime Minister's staff with respect to the Auberge Grand-Mère affair?

[Supply, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I think the issue is not to rush towards judgment in changing our system. No one is advocating that. Even the mover of the motion has suggested that we go about this in a very pragmatic and practical way, which is to have an all party committee look at different forms of potential proportional representation or other changes to the electoral system.

I agree that minority rights are always important. That is very much a part of this debate. I am encouraged by the level of interest of those who have taken part in the debate today.

[Supply, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, to respond directly to the question, I think there are two issues that the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain has pointed out. There is the issue of whether there would there be more opposition, as opposed to whether the members elected under the current system in government would have a greater say or a greater ability to speak out for regional issues.

I think it is fair to say that there will always be regional issues that arise. I am very proud of the province that I come from and of that region in northern Nova Scotia of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough and all that it has accomplished and will accomplish. I bring those issues forward on behalf of my constituents, as does the hon. member.

There are two separate issues here. One is the issue of having a voice in government, and the effective individual ability to raise regional issues or issues of importance also on a national scale is something different. The dynamic that exists within the current government does not speak to that. It does not encourage that. It does not embrace individuality.

The other issue about how it would result in a change in the current dynamic or the current makeup of the House is that under proportional representation, for one thing, we would not have a majority government. Second, I would suggest that there would be greater representation under that system in terms of it really expressing the will of the people. For example, if we had not a first past the post system but a system of runoff, we would not have these types of anomalies whereby members of parliament are elected with such a low proportion of the vote. I think that is how the dynamic might differ if we had a system such as that.

I thank the hon. member for his question. I know that he is engaged and interested in this issue as well.

[Supply, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, when in opposition the member opposite like most Liberal members used to rail against the government and the need for proportional representation. We have seen this kind of pliable stance taken time and time again by not only that member but the government House leader saying that things had to be changed and that a new system has to be brought about.

Now they sit pretty. They sit in an opportunity before Canadians with the chance to bring about real parliamentary reform. Will it happen? Absolutely not. Will they give lip service to it? Will they talk about ways to modernize parliament? Yes, they will.

They will talk to Canadians endlessly about the pressing need for electronic voting and try to pass it off as electoral reform. It is absolute nonsense. It would allow government members to stay away from the Chamber and it would allow voices of the opposition to be further muted.

We have seen an unprecedented period in the last seven to eight years of Liberal administration where the government has done everything in its power to mute the opposition. It has done everything to essentially take away methods by which the opposition could raise relevant issues, important objections to whether it be government legislation, policy direction or legitimate issues the opposition has heard from its constituents. We have seen systematic efforts to emasculate the opposition in that regard.

I would characterize the motion that is before the House in a very non-partisan way. It is to be commended for recommending a special all party committee to examine the merits of various methods of proportional representation. It also does not limit the debate to just proportional representation. It is a broad, all encompassing, all inclusive motion that calls upon all members of the Chamber to take part in the debate, to flesh out the matter and to give it some substance. We know that is the last thing the government wants to do and the last thing we will see. The simple reason for that—and the member opposite may holler his righteous indignation—is that it is not in the government's interests to change a system that rewards it. There is no appetite to bring about a change that will undermine the current government's ability to be elected.

As was demonstrated in the past, by low voter turnout and the proportionately low electoral support, there is no interest in changing the system that might eke away or somehow result in the government not being re-elected. That is not in the interests of the current government.

The temptation in the debate will be to focus on proportional representation but I do not believe that is the intention or the fashion in which the motion is before us. It mentions proportional representation but it leaves the door open to look at other methods of electoral reform.

Going outside the traditional party parliament system is a way in which this place can gain greater relevance in the hearts and minds of Canadians. Empowering individual members of parliament is also a very important part of the debate.

The faith that Canadians have in their representatives is at the very root of this issue and is at the very heart of what should be accomplished throughout the debate and throughout future debates if this motion were to pass in a committee.

It is important that Canadians understand the significance of committees. Committees go on sometimes out of the glare of the media. They are without the partisan tone that we all tend to fall into in the Chamber. Committees are where legitimate work can be done, the heavy slogging, and where the opportunity exists to hear from impartial stakeholders in matters such as this.

Committee work is crucial to the inner workings and the success of parliament. On the one hand it is unfortunate that the public does not have access to all of that work, but it is important that it is done in a forum where real ideas can be discussed without the sometimes poison partisanship that ekes into the public debate.

It has been mentioned as well that much of the power that is lost by members of parliament has been consumed by lobby groups or interest groups that take a particular position on any given issue. That is fine. That is a natural system that has evolved as well.

However, lobby groups that have access or trade on access to government becomes a little more troubling. When power is increasingly concentrated, as we have seen under the Liberal government, in the PMO and those who surround the Prime Minister, either by favour or appointment, this is where it becomes undemocratic. It becomes most troubling when people trade on access and when people can bring about and effect decisions because of a personal or past connection, whether it be former cabinet ministers or otherwise. This is where democracy starts to come undone. The erosion and the rot sets in when individual members are not feeling empowered to the extent that they feel they have legitimate input into our system.

Time and time again in the House of Commons, the practice of this government has been to make public announcements, important shifts in policy, important public pronouncements in the press gallery across Wellington Street as opposed to standing here before Canadians and displaying respect for not only their own colleagues but for opposition members who carry the same burden, and I do not say burden in the negative sense, but carry the same responsibility of being elected by Canadians. Those announcements are not made here. They are most often made across the way in front of the press or they are leaked. The trial balloons are sent out prior to the announcements actually being made public. That practice has to stop.

I come back to the issue of committees. There was a recent opportunity to empower and put greater faith in committees by giving them the opportunity to elect chairmen, but again this would not be consistent with the PMO's reign of power, with the hold on those committees to control the agenda and to control the membership. If one is representing the PMO, one does not want to have a rogue chairman who might somehow be out of step or out of line with the PMO's thinking on any given issue. The government completely passed up this opportunity, displaying once again my point that this talk of parliamentary reform, this lip service that we hear from the government, is really just that. There is really no genuine intent to reform this place, because it would undermine, undercut and erode the ever increasing concentration of power that we have seen in the Prime Minister's office.

Do not take my word for it. Do not take any member of parliament's word for it. History will bear this out. Professors of politics have repeatedly suggested that this is the case in the country. It is well documented.

I know my time is brief. I want to again suggest that we have an opportunity here to take part in a very meaningful debate to discuss ideas about parliamentary reform and electoral reform. I very much associate those two because it lends greater legitimacy to parliament if we have a system in place in which Canadians have faith.

The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has listed at length the number of countries—100 plus—around the world that have embraced a system of proportional representation or a derivation thereof. This is an opportunity for Canadians to learn more about what sometimes is seen as an overly complicated system but is not. There are systems that working very effectively in places like Australia and Ireland and in places that have a history of democracy much longer than our own.

I appreciate the opportunity to partake in the debate, although I do not appreciate the endless hyena heckling that is coming from across the way. This debate once again demonstrates that we in this place have an opportunity to say what we have to say on an important subject such as this.

[Supply, February 20th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to take part in the debate on what is a very important issue and again to echo the comments of the ever loquacious and relevant member for Saint John, New Brunswick. She has pointed out that the NDP has brought forward a motion that is very much relevant and very much on the minds of many Canadians.

I have listened with interest to the comments of the government House leader that this was not something he encountered during the past campaign. He did not feel that the majority of Canadians were bursting with enthusiasm for any sort of parliamentary reform.

However, the outcome of the election is what highlights the importance of this issue. As we saw in previous elections, for example in 1997, we had a majority government elected by 38% of the Canadian electorate, which resulted in a disproportionate majority government.