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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was plan.

Last in Parliament February 2017, as Liberal MP for Saint-Laurent (Québec)

Won his last election, in 2015, with 62% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Supply November 25th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. It is a legitimate question, but I do not think the concern is well advised.

It has been very clear since the beginning that with an interpretive clause, first, you cannot override what is clear in the Constitution. It is something which helps to interpret the Constitution when the Constitution is not clear.

Second, it cannot give to one province more powers or privileges than it gives to other provinces.

In order to be sure that it is very clear that this is not special status, what the Calgary declaration added is the principle stating that if any future constitutional amendment confers powers on one province, those powers must be available to all provinces.

That is already what we are doing. We could take the example of the manpower training agreements which we are negotiating with the provinces. Alberta and Quebec have decided to use all the powers which the agreements give them, but Newfoundland did not feel that it needed them, so there will be co-management with Newfoundland. Newfoundland will not have full autonomy in this field.

What is important is that everything is available for everyone. This is equality and we are committed to ensure that this will always be the case.

Supply November 25th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to thank the member for Edmonton—Strathcona and also the member for Dauphin—Swan River for their initiative today and to explain why the Government of Canada will support this motion from the opposition.

Canadian unity is not a partisan issue. We have our disagreements on how this country should be governed, and it is normal in a democracy that there be a liberal approach, a social-democratic approach, a conservative approach and a reform approach, or whatever we choose to call it. What is important, however, is that we all work together for the unity of Canada.

The premiers have proposed principles that can gain the support of all Canadians, and as such can strengthen our unity. The Calgary declaration is not the only part to Canadian unity, but it is an important one to show that Quebeckers, just like Albertans, just like all Canadians, share values and can look forward to the next century with a shared purpose rather than in a spirit of division. That is the objective of this declaration.

It is a wonderful declaration because it shows that in Canada, perhaps more than in any other country, we know that equality is not the same thing as uniformity. Equality is an important value that is being pursued further in Canada than anywhere else, along with diversity, which is also an important value, and this country finds its strength in diversity. Diversity is not at all at issue; it is a strength, and these two values go together.

That diversity covers various features. There is of course the bilingual character of the country; there is the multicultural character of the country, there is the contribution made by aboriginal peoples, and there is the Quebec society, which is in a unique situation in North America, for reasons on which everyone can agree.

What is also new in the Calgary declaration is the fact that it is clearly stated that no special status is being created for anyone. All provinces have equal status. Either they are provinces or they are not. If they are provinces, equality of status always applies, but recognition of the equal status of the provinces should not prevent, in fact it should promote, taking into consideration the particular circumstances of each province, because we have a very diverse country, and circumstances in Alberta are not in many respects the same as those in Nova Scotia.

One province is totally unique by virtue of its majority language, its culture, its civil code, its own institutions, and that province is Quebec. There can be recognition of this province's unique situation without creating a situation of inequality compared to the others, merely by stating that everything to be given to one province, in light of its particular situation, must also be available to the others if they should require it.

Quebeckers are not jealous people. They do not want anything for themselves that others would not be able to have. They simply want assurance that, in this decentralized federation, their identity and their way of being Canadians “à la Québecoise” can be reinforced in the coming century with the assistance of other Canadians.

Other Canadians, Albertans and citizens from other provinces, are not jealous people either. They are not saying that since they do not need it, they do not want Quebeckers to have it. They just said that anything that is available for a province must be available for the provinces because this is equality.

It is in this way that we have reconciled the values of diversity and equality. We must commend all the premiers for having done that and we must support them.

I am very pleased to see how in this House the parties that believe in Canada speak with one voice. We support those principles.

I want to quote a great Canadian, a key Canadian for this very moment in our history coming from the province of the hon. member. “I believe in a Canada where all provinces have equal status, but a Canada that allows Quebec to protect those things that make it such a unique part of our national character. do not think those two principles cancel each other out. The Canada I am describing might be familiar to many because most of us grew up here in the tolerant and diverse nation where we are equal as Canadians no matter where we live, but where the word equality is not used as a blanket to smother diversity.”

I agree with that fully. That is exactly the spirit of the Calgary declaration which was stated last spring, well before the Calgary declaration, by Premier Ralph Klein. So it is not a partisan matter.

We are with premier Klein and with all the premiers, in this initiative which is aimed at enhancing our key values.

As the Leader of the Opposition said recently, Alberta political leaders have chosen to act as big westerners, not little westerners on this issue.

I am very proud to share this country with the hon. member from Alberta. We will fight together to make sure that we will stay fellow citizens. Whatever arguments we may have about social, economic and criminal policies, we will have the pleasure of fighting together in the same country.

We are are having a disagreement right now which is not a fundamental one. It is a disagreement about how to speak to Quebeckers at this very moment. It is not fundamental but it is something we have to discuss. I am happy that this discussion will occur today.

The point of view of the government today is that it is too soon for that. As the member from the Bloc said, it is not so easy to consult with people even in a province where a premier like Premier Klein is strongly supporting the resolution of the Calgary declaration. It is not easy because when people get up in the morning it is not their first preoccupation to listen to a debate about this declaration.

It does not mean that people do not support it. In fact, if they were strongly against it the likelihood that they would rush to these kinds of consultations would be greater. However, I think they support the principles.

I know that polls are polls, but what is interesting are the polls that are compared with the ones we had in Charlottetown or Meech. When we go into the details of the declaration, the support is even greater for the declaration in Quebec.

When Quebeckers are asked “Do you support the Calgary declaration?”, the support is there, but not strong support. When they are asked “Do you support citizen equality?”, there is very strong support. When they are asked “Do you support the equality of status of the provinces?”, there is strong support. And when they are asked “Do you support the recognition of Quebec's unique character?”, there is very strong support.

In other words, the more detail there is given on the declaration, the more people support it, and this is grounds for considerable optimism, even if the process of consultation in those provinces whose premiers support the process is not as easy as some would believe. People are not rushing to share their points of view, but there are still grounds for considerable optimism.

Where are we headed with all this? It is desirable for the premiers of the nine provinces and the territorial leaders who believe in a powerful united Canada, coming out of these consultations, to be able to find sufficient public support to enable them to submit to their respective parliaments a statement of principle, which will no doubt be fairly close to the Calgary declaration and will show the extent to which Canadians do, in fact, share the same values. This will lead to declarations by the legislatures.

It will not be a constitutional act. We are not speaking about the Constitution now. It is a declaration of principles that shows that yes, we share values. If one day we are ready, especially if there is a premier in Quebec who believes in Canada, we will see if there is still support among the people for something that would be a more legal document that we may consider putting in the Constitution.

The approach that we have with the support of the Leader of the Opposition and all the leaders in the House who believe in Canada and who support the step by step approach is something great and I am very proud to do it with all my colleagues in the House who believe in Canada.

Quebec's Partition November 20th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, this is typical of the separatist leaders: when they do not know what to say about something, they try to run down their opponent.

Calgary Declaration November 17th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, what is definitely not enough for Quebec is this narrow minded plan to split Quebec from Canada. Quebeckers want to stay in Canada and they are quite right.

Calgary Declaration November 17th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, I believe this is wishful thinking on the part of the member.

Basically, the Calgary declaration reflects great Canadian values, a profound respect for diversity and support for equality. Except for the separatist party, all parties in this House have agreed to it. It has support from across the country, and what the member has just said about wishing there were none is even more reason for supporting it.

Amendment To The Constitution Of Canada (Quebec) November 17th, 1997

moved:

WHEREAS the Government of Quebec has indicated that it intends to establish French and English linguistic school boards in Quebec;

AND WHEREAS the National Assembly of Quebec has passed a resolution authorizing an amendment to the Constitution of Canada;

AND WHEREAS the National Assembly of Quebec has reaffirmed the established rights of the English-speaking community of Quebec, specifically the right, in accordance with the law of Quebec, of members of that community to have their children receive their instruction in English language educational facilities that are under the management and control of that community and are financed through public funds;

AND WHEREAS section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees to citizens throughout Canada rights to minority language instruction and minority language educational facilities under the management and control of linguistic minorities and provided out of public funds;

AND WHEREAS section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982 provides that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada may be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada where so authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the legislative assembly of each province to which the amendment applies;

NOW THEREFORE the House of Commons resolves that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada be authorized to be made by proclamation issued by His Excellency the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada in accordance with the schedule hereto.

SCHEDULE

AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF CANADA CONSTITUTION ACT, 1867.

  1. The Constitution Act, 1867, is amended by adding, immediately after section 93, the following:

“93A. Paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 do not apply to Quebec.”

CITATION

  1. This Amendment may be cited as the Constitution Amendment, year of proclamation (Quebec).

“Mr. Speaker, on April 15, 1997, the Quebec National Assembly voted unanimously in favour of a resolution to amend the constitution and exempt Quebec from the application of paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867.

This amendment would essentially put an end to the educational rights and privileges enjoyed by that province's Catholics and Protestants. It would mean that Quebec could reorganize its school board system along linguistic rather than denominational lines.

On October 1, the government tabled in the House of Commons and in the Senate a resolution to amend the Constitution similar to that put forward by Quebec. However, before proceeding with the debate, the government wanted to clarify the issue and allow interested groups to be heard. This is why we decided to task a joint Senate and House of Commons committee with examining the various aspects of the proposed resolution.

The committee thus held public consultations during which about 60 groups and individuals were heard. In the report it submitted on November 7, it recommended that both Houses of Parliament adopt the resolution to amend section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867, as tabled in the House of Commons on October 1, 1997, and in the Senate on October 9.

Before I go any further, I would like to congratulate the committee members on the exemplary work they have done. Because of their efforts, it has been possible for many citizens and groups who so wished to express their points of view. It has also been possible for parliamentarians to examine this highly complex issue from all angles.

I urge the House to follow the committee's recommendation and support the resolution to amend the constitution.

Since parliamentarians have had an opportunity to consult the committee's report, I will merely go over the main points, with particular emphasis on the concerns identified by committee members and possible responses to those concerns.

First, there is the issue of the amending formula. In its report, the committee began by looking at the applicable amendment procedure. Backed by legal advice, the Government of Canada held that section 93 could be amended bilaterally, in accordance with section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Most of the experts on constitutional law that the committee heard confirmed the government's position. As stated in the committee report, “these experts maintained that the amendment requested affects only the province of Quebec, and they therefore concluded that the procedure involved could only be bilateral and required only a resolution by the Quebec National Assembly, the province concerned, and a resolution by the two Houses of the Canadian Parliament”.

The work of the committee will therefore have been useful in dispelling any doubts that some people may have had on the appropriate amending procedure. But what about the purpose of the resolution itself?

Some witnesses wondered whether it was appropriate to do away at this time with the safeguards provided under section 93. Some people disagreed with the amendment on purely religious grounds. They claimed that the right to receive Catholic or Protestant religious education for those who want it should be maintained, without however imposing such education on those who do not want it. Others argued that the creation of linguistic school boards did not require the amendment of section 93. Based on Supreme Court decisions, they claimed that linguistic and denominational school boards could coexist.

Although that last statement is basically true, the committee concluded it was not very realistic to keep a system of denominational school boards together with a system of linguistic school boards. In fact, over the last 15 years, successive governments in Quebec have considered such an approach, and legislation to that effect was even adopted in 1988. All these governments ultimately backed down because of the tremendous difficulties that the implementation of such legislation would have created.

In fact, this would have created six school systems in Montreal and Quebec City, and greatly increased the number of religious schools, resulting in the scattering of resources. This is why the representatives of the Quebec federation of school boards stated, and I quote, “By stacking the linguistic and denominational structures, it would become much more complicated and burdensome to carry out yearly activities related to student enrolment, assignment of personnel, distribution of resources, establishing voting lists and sharing the tax base”.

That being said however, we must admit that the non-application to Quebec of subsections (1) to (4) of section 93 will result in the withdrawal of constitutional safeguards presently provided to Catholics and Protestants in that province. There are however a number of considerations that soften the impact of this change.

It appears that, for all intents and purposes, the right of dissent is limited to the right to determine the religious dimensions of the curriculum. Moreover, it is solely in the territory of the cities of Montreal and Quebec City that section 93 guarantees Catholics and Protestants the right to school boards. In short, the rights and privileges enjoyed by Catholics and Protestants now are as much as, if not more, from legislation than from the constitution.

In this connection, it must not be lost sight of either that the objective of the Government of Quebec is not to make the Quebec school system a lay system, but rather to make school structures non-denominational. As Quebec's Minister of Education, Mrs. Marois, explained in her testimony before the joint committee, the constitutional amendment will have no immediate repercussions whatsoever on the place of religion in the schools. That issue will be addressed in a separate public debate. In the immediate future, therefore, the schools will retain their denominational orientation, and parents or children can continue to request religious or moral education in keeping with their convictions in the public educational facilities, as guaranteed in section 41 of the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.

These considerations have certainly not convinced francophone protestants. A number of members of that community came to the committee to state that protections of a legislative nature can never replace constitutional guarantees. They indicated as well that, not only can the lawmakers modify the clauses currently authorizing religious teaching in the schools, they could also be forced to do so if the courts were to reach the conclusion that such teaching contravenes the rights and freedoms guaranteed by the charters as soon as section 93 ceases to be in effect.

Without wishing to minimize the importance of this problem, we must place in its proper perspective. First of all, a court would have to reach the conclusion that the solutions opted for by Quebec lawmakers in this connection infringe upon religious freedom and equality rights, and would also have to conclude that these restrictions are not reasonable within a free and democratic society.

In such a case, the supreme court could indicate the type of arrangement that was likely to meet the requirements of the Canadian and Quebec charters. Quebec lawmakers might also want to consider various legislative arrangements in place in other provinces to deal with this thorny issue.

A hypothetical consideration arises. The highest court has often indicated that it did not intend to take the place of the lawmakers in arbitrating between the interests of the various groups in the community. There are, therefore, grounds to believe that elected representatives retain a certain degree of flexibility in adjudicating between various individuals' rights.>

As a last resort, the Government of Quebec could invoke the notwithstanding clause. I was obviously very pleased to hear my counterpart, the Quebec minister of Canadian intergovernmental affairs, Jacques Brassard, say that “the notwithstanding clause would be invoked only as a last resort and with great care and diplomacy”. He is perfectly right. It is a band-aid solution and should be used only exceptionally. The joint committee shares our opinion on this.

The fears expressed by the French speaking Protestants are understandable, but the rights and privileges in section 93 apply to all Protestants and not just to those who speak French. Attention must not be paid to a minority within a minority to a point where the growth of society as a whole is paralyzed.

Other groups told the committee that the guarantees accorded under section 93 to Catholics and Protestants are at odds with Quebec's modern pluralistic society. Representatives of the Jewish and Arab communities in particular have pointed out that this section contains a form of discrimination. This point too warrants consideration.

By passing the amendment proposed by Quebec's National Assembly, Parliament will permit an open and full debate on the whole question, which is what the Quebec minister of education promised, in fact, when she appeared before the committee.

In quite another vein, members of Quebec's anglophone community appeared before the committee to call for section 23 to be applied in its entirety so that individuals, whose first language learned and still understood is English but who did not receive their primary education in English in Canada, can send their children to English schools. That was fair enough but the committee concluded that was another debate.

In that connection I reiterate that Quebec's anglophone minority, which has traditionally controlled and managed its own school system, thanks to protections granted to Protestants under section 93, can support amending that provision in all confidence. That is because its rights have been better protected since the coming into force of the Constitution Act, 1982, specifically section 23 of the Canadian charter.

Unlike section 93, section 23 of the Canadian charter has the specific objective of providing francophone and anglophone minorities with linguistic guarantees with respect to education. It has been interpreted progressively and generously by the courts. In effect, section 23 guarantees official language minorities the right to manage and control their own schools and even their own school boards. A number of groups and experts confirmed that during their testimony to the committee.

In that respect the establishment of linguistic school board will enable the anglophone community to consolidate its school population of and gain the maximum benefit from the guarantees under section 23.

I must also mention the concerns of the Native peoples living in Quebec. Two aboriginal groups representing the Metis and Indians living off the reserve have expressed concern over the possible effects of the proposed constitutional amendment. They claim that their rights could be affected to the extent that this section protects the pre-Confederation laws governing instruction for Native peoples.

The Government of Canada is sensitive to their claims and it is certainly a legitimate concern for Native peoples to want to ensure the development of their culture through education. However, we must recognize that this was not the intent given section 93. On a number of occasions, the courts have determined that section 93 provides constitutional guarantees based solely on religious belief. There is no provision for language or race. Section 93 offers no special guarantee to Native peoples, except if they are Protestant or Catholic. The committee shares our opinion in this regard.

Consensus. When I first raised the possibility of amending section 93 with Quebec intergovernmental affairs minister Jacques Brassard, I clearly indicated that the Government of Canada would support an amendment proposal if a reasonable consensus existed in Quebec and if the affected minority agreed.

This consensus was expressed in two unanimous votes in the National Assembly. Indeed, the Government of Quebec and official opposition members testified to this consensus during the joint committee hearings.

Regardless, the fact that no public consultations dealing specifically with the constitutional amendment took place in Quebec raised doubts as to this consensus. That is why the government insisted that interested groups and individuals be heard. In fact, the joint committee said this was one of its primary concerns. These groups and individuals came in large numbers and were given the opportunity to express their views.

The committee noted that the Assembly of Quebec Bishops is not opposed to the amendment. The Quebec Federation of School Boards which represents all Catholic school boards in the province also supports the amendment. The same is true for the Provincial Association of Catholic Teachers and the Centrale de l'enseignement du Québec.

On the whole there is every indication that the vast majority of Catholics are open to the proposed change. That support is not unanimous, as evidenced by the opposition of the Coalition of Denominational Schools. However, it could not be expected that the challenging of the rights and privileges entrenched in the constitution for 130 years would be supported by all.

Nevertheless the government and the committee believe that a broad consensus exists among Catholics who are not in any case a minority in Quebec and will still be able to express their opinion through democratic means.

A substantial consensus seems to exist among Protestants too. Since this will be the most directly affected group, it is important to ensure that a majority of the members of this group support the amendment's objective. The Anglican Church came out in favour of the amendment, as did the Provincial Association of Protestant Teachers.

Protestants are not speaking with a single voice. Objections raised by French speaking Protestants must be noted. Testimonies heard by the committee do show however that a reasonable consensus in favour of the amendment exists in this community and that is what the committee concluded.

Many other groups testified before the committee. The vast majority of these groups supported the constitutional amendment proposal. To name a few: the Fédération des comités de parents, which is the largest parents' group in the province, the Coalition pour la déconfessionnalisation scolaire, which is comprised of 40 organizations and claims to represent more than 2 million people, every central labour body in Quebec and representatives from the Jewish and Arab communities.

To conclude, based on the foregoing, there is no doubt that the consensus required to amend section 93 of the Constitution does exist. And that is what the joint committee concluded in its report following these consultations. It reads: “Based upon the evidence received by this committee, there appears to be a consensus amongst Quebec Protestants and amongst Quebec Roman Catholics in favour of the amendment. Overall, it appears that, although some witnesses expressed their concerns with respect to the proposed amendment, there is a consensus in Quebec society supporting this change”.

It is now up to us to act on the joint committee's recommendation and adopt the resolution to amend section 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867, as proposed in the House of Commons on October 1, 1997.

Child Support November 7th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, this is a question the hon. member would do better to ask her own party.

Child Support November 7th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, there is no question of commenting on the so-called anonymous sources, but it is very good news that the Government of Quebec is ready to negotiate, because so are we.

Newfoundland School System October 27th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, this is an extremely hypothetical example.

Since we are dealing with hypotheses, let us assume that one province, with a very strong majority, were to turn up with a constitutional change that was clearly discriminatory toward a minority in that province—and I am not in the least singling out New Brunswick with this, it being a bilingual and profoundly democratic province—but let us assume that sometime in the next few decades a government with a bad idea were to say to us “We've had enough of official bilingualism in New Brunswick, and we have a clear majority behind us in this”. We would still ask them what the Acadian minority in New Brunswick thought about this.

Despite a clear majority, the Government of Canada—probably a Liberal one—would say “You will not even get that past the first door of this Parliament, because there are minority rights that have to be respected”.

Newfoundland School System October 27th, 1997

Mr. Speaker, it is not paternalism in the least, it is federalism. Federalism is defined as a system in which public power is not concentrated in a single order of government, thus better protecting the freedom of citizens. The democratic federations are evidence of this.

We, the Canadian Parliament, have the responsibility of looking at what has occurred. The hon. member tells me it is unlikely the judgment brought down unanimously for the province of Newfoundland—this being the case we are addressing today—can be changed. The government agrees fully that it is unlikely, but we still cannot be remiss in our duty to look at this very closely.