Industry committee  On the win-back front, I think there's a little bit of a misconception. People think we can actually win customers back before they switch to Shaw. Practically speaking, that can't happen, and I think Mr. Hunter explained that. The way we find out they're gone is that they've left; it's not before they've left.

Industry committee  Basically, that's absolutely correct. So all we want to be able to do is compete.

Industry committee  And the study I'm referring to, by Gerry Wall, addresses very much the facts in that report. We would be pleased to provide the committee members with copies.

Industry committee  In wireline, as I already indicated, that's not the case.

Industry committee  Right. I've given you some examples of why I don't think that's an accurate reflection. Our pricing is competitive when measured against the pricing of most trading partners. It's broadly similar relative to the United States. As I said, I think it would be most helpful if I provided to you the details from the Wall report, because I don't think that's an accurate portrayal.

Industry committee  Well, if you looked at Calgary, Edmonton, and the Lower Mainland and counted our losses to Shaw, as well as the households using wireless only—because in Calgary, Edmonton, and the Lower Mainland we don't serve close to 10% of households because they take wireless only—we'd pretty much be at the 25% threshold in those three cities, give or take.

Industry committee  Yes.

Industry committee  That's not a public figure. The Fort McMurray figure is public only because we have actually put an application in front of the CRTC for deregulation in Fort McMurray under the commission's original deregulation tests.

Industry committee  Well, obviously it's competitively sensitive information for us to talk about city-specific losses.

Industry committee  That's correct.

Industry committee  My answer to that is they've had a two-year holiday to get market share, and in that period we've not been able to respond. It's cold comfort for us to find out we can finally be deregulated, after we've lost so many customers since Shaw entered in February 2005. The real issue is why we weren't deregulated sooner, and it's that 25% threshold that stood in the way.

Industry committee  Well, for sure. It'll help all customers. Where Shaw's offering service, customers will have to choose between their best offer and our best offer. Right now Shaw puts an offer on the table and we can't match it.

Industry committee  Obviously we have a different view of the competitiveness of the wireless market. Living it on a day-to-day basis, I can say that it certainly feels vigorously competitive when you're out there trying to win customers. We believe the industry is indeed competitive. There are many brands out there.

Industry committee  I think it's the law that's the safeguard. The Telecommunications Act requires the CRTC to regulate, except where there is sufficient competition to protect users. The law is not changing, so where there isn't competition, the law requires the CRTC to continue to regulate. I don't know why consumer groups would think the CRTC is going to abandon its responsibilities under the law to do so, because it's the law that requires them to.

Industry committee  I don't agree. The test for deregulation is done exchange by exchange. In an exchange where there is competition and we pass the test, we'll be deregulated. And where there isn't, which will be in very large geographic regions.... As has been pointed out by a number of people here, there are vast geographic regions with small pockets of population, and I think the appropriate and remaining role for regulation is to ensure that consumers in those regions and in those areas continue to be protected by the CRTC.