Environment committee  Lots of different jurisdictions have used different tools, and many have used multiple tools. In Ontario and in Canada we're using extended producer responsibility, which requires manufacturers to ensure that their products are recycled at end of life, so you're injecting money from those companies into the system to ensure that those materials are properly captured and properly processed.

Environment committee  Again, when it comes to diversion of materials, for most materials you're going to be paying more for the recycling or diversion of those materials than for disposal right now. Absolutely, you are going to be paying more, but, again, when you look at it from an economic perspective and you look at the impact on jobs and GDP, there is a net negative impact of sending all of those resources to waste, so you can look at it from the point of view of a consumer or the person who is paying, but—

Environment committee  I don't think there is one. There are multiple types of tools you can use. First, a disposal levy would be one of those tools, adding a price at disposal sites or consolidation points. Second, there are also the extended producer responsibility programs into which you inject money and require that those materials be properly recycled.

Environment committee  I would say that right now you have a failure of our system, which allows resources that we don't need anymore to flow to disposal options. As I said before, you're looking at rates in Michigan and New York that are below $10 a tonne, we understand. When you add in the processing costs that go into sorting materials so that they can be rerouted back into the economy, you can't make the economic case.

Environment committee  I think aluminum is probably not a good one to have this discussion on, because the majority of the time you're going to say that aluminum has a high commodity value and you're going to want to go after that material. Generally, right now in the marketplace, you don't need a lot of additional pieces to go after that aluminum.

Environment committee  My answer to that question would be that I don't think state-controlled economies ever work out very well. My suggestion to you would be that what the government needs to do is set outcomes. They need to say that if you put this product in the marketplace, it needs to be recycled.

Environment committee  There's probably some assistance with research.... I'd probably need to think about this a little bit more. Typically this is largely a provincial issue. I'd need to think through what additionally the federal government could provide. I don't know, Doug, if you have something you want to add.

Environment committee  Just really quickly, I'll follow up on Emmie's point. Just so people are aware, in Ontario right now, to ship waste, the tipping fee in Michigan is sub-$10. That just gives you an idea of some of the differential fees for waste versus recycling. With regard to StatsCan, their data right now looks only at waste that's flowing through waste management companies, so it doesn't take into account waste that flows from a generator potentially directly to a processor.

Environment committee  They are certainly well aware of this, but there just haven't been the resources or the intention to deal with those issues.

Environment committee  Maybe I'll start off. Certainly if you look across Europe, you will see that there are obviously other motivators happening there. But if you look at a number of different jurisdictions in Europe—the United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands—you will see that there are lots of things being done in those jurisdictions to better capture the value of waste.

Environment committee  There is some government oversight, but essentially, those bodies work completely unhindered by any government control.

Environment committee  They still have to have audited statements that come out. But sure, there surely are lots of ways for them to hide money and move it around. I think that has always been the concern. The concern, bluntly, from the waste management industry, is that we've gone from a system in which we have hundreds of purchasers to a system in which we have one purchaser that controls the fate of the industry.

Environment committee  In Ontario it's a problem, to some degree, with how the legislation was written back in 2002. But it should very well be a federal issue. As I said in my remarks, when you're looking at one organization charging $115 million annually on electronics purchases across the country, surely that's a pocketbook issue that the Competition Bureau should be looking into.

Environment committee  Again, I think I talked about scrap yards a little bit earlier. Scrap yards are probably a good example. Ontario is in the process right now of providing an environmental standard for how vehicles need to be dismantled and recycled. There is no standard right now, so there are players out there that aren't draining the materials or the fluids from those vehicles or are throwing mercury switches out, and you end up with brownfield lands that saddle the federal or provincial government with cost.

Environment committee  It's probably a little bit of a stretch, but I'll provide the example of seat belts. Seat belts are a requirement in vehicles. We require companies to have seat belts in vehicles. Vehicle companies innovate. They figure out the best way to put those seat belts in the car, and they figure out the cheapest way to do it.