Foreign Affairs committee  If I can jump in on that too, the Arms Trade Treaty actually requires ongoing monitoring after exports take place to ensure that the end use and the end-user are respected. The industry, has a role to play here. Global Affairs at one point, when the ATT came into effect, did. The director general of trade and export controls made a very good statement to industry saying, look, you've got to get on the ball here and you've got to know what's happening yourself.

Foreign Affairs committee  No. That's the brief answer. We're not. We have nothing to be proud of here.

Foreign Affairs committee  I think I have a slight disagreement with Professor Byers with respect to the substantial risk. In my view, we're both lawyers and lawyers can argue over these things, but I think “overriding risk” and “substantial risk” are equivalent terms. The problem with Canada is that we don't actually assess substantial risk.

Foreign Affairs committee  We don't, and that's another point that needs to be made. Transparency is one of the fundamental principles of the Arms Trade Treaty, and Canada is failing lamentably at that as well, so in fact we don't know how many are denied.

Foreign Affairs committee  There haven't, insofar as we can determine, been any. No country that we've been able to find has set up an independent agency, so this would be groundbreaking for Canada. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, most of the other countries, allies, are doing a much better job in-house of managing their obligations under the Arms Trade Treaty, so perhaps this is—

Foreign Affairs committee  I don't know the exact numbers. I do know that, in all of the work that's done with best practices, they do emphasize the heavy, heavy workloads that foreign affairs and trade ministries are facing in processing these applications. That's why they emphasize the best practices, as set out: Here are four questions to ask; then proceed to this; then proceed to that, etc.

Foreign Affairs committee  Are you asking that of Michael?

Foreign Affairs committee  In short, that's unfortunately the case. Since civil society didn't have the opportunity to virtually consult this panel of experts, we missed the signs pointing to the seriousness of the situation.

Foreign Affairs committee  Yes, there's an absolute direct conflict. The difference is quite clear, because The Globe and Mail got evidence on the ground. It hired someone on the ground to take those pictures of the captured Wescam technology, and it couldn't be disputed. While there's an abundance of evidence with respect to Canadian complicity in human rights violations in Yemen, with Saudi Arabia's use of Canadian-made equipment, there is no smoking gun.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much. The Arms Trade Treaty legal obligations give no exemption for allies. Every country that you might export to is an ally of another country. The Arms Trade Treaty obligations have to be applied fully in respect of all prospective recipient countries. We don't have an international legal obligation to export arms, but we do have an international legal obligation to export those arms in accordance with the obligations under the Arms Trade Treaty.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much. Let me first express my deep dismay and solidarity with the people of India as they struggle with this terrible pandemic. Let me next associate myself with the remarks of the two previous speakers. Today I want to briefly look at how Canada assesses substantial risk, looking first at Saudi Arabia and then at Turkey.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much for that question. This is another area, I regret to say, of abuse by Global Affairs, the abuse of the term “commercial confidentiality”. The OECD actually has a definition of commercial confidentiality and it is really narrowly construed to relate to factors to do with pricing and competitiveness of bids.

Foreign Affairs committee  I haven't done an exhaustive review, but certainly I think it would be fair to say that among western countries this would be groundbreaking. This would be something where Canada would be leading the way in demonstrating that we don't just say we believe in a rules-based international order, but we actually implement and we put our money where our mouth is.

Foreign Affairs committee  It will be interesting to see what happens with the incoming administration, although it is the Senate that would have to approve. That might be difficult. It's important, though. I think we should bear in mind that on at least three occasions, Congress, on a bipartisan basis, voted to stop American arms exports to Saudi Arabia.

Foreign Affairs committee  Could I jump in first?