Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I'm sorry, are you talking about the rate of occupancy of the various healing lodges? Is that what you meant?

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  That's an excellent question. We were as puzzled as you are. If you have 4,500 indigenous prisoners in federal corrections and you have only 139 beds, how come those beds are not full? It's the same with respect to the CSC-operated healing lodges, with the capacity of 250. When we looked at it overall, I think those beds were 75% occupied.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Yes. That problem certainly exists among our Inuit in northern Quebec and the far north. As I said, there are no penitentiaries in the north. Inuit are therefore sent to penitentiaries in southern Canada. The Correctional Service has established four Inuit centres of excellence that provide programming that better meets their needs.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  The answer is yes. In my opinion, there should definitely be more such commitments, commitments that are more respectful of indigenous communities.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I'd like to ask Hazel to provide you with a response, and maybe I'll complement her response, if needed.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  What I can tell you is that if you look at, for example, the incarceration rate, which is way higher for indigenous people than for non-indigenous people, and you use that as a barometer to assess the successes and failures of our broad public policies, I would argue that if you were able to stop the trend—which has been linear and is getting worse year after year—and even reverse that trend in terms of the incarceration rate, you would find that you would have made gains on issues such as education, housing, health care, employment, anti-racism initiatives and so on.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Let me give you an example. Three weeks ago, I visited Edmonton Institution, which is a stand-alone maximum-security institution. I think it had, at the time, about 230 incarcerated individuals. It is so dysfunctional that now they're basically running 12 separate subpopulations within that penitentiary.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  It's clear to me that throwing more money and doing the same kind of recipe isn't going to improve the situation for those who are incarcerated in federal facilities. I've made a number of pointed, bold recommendations. After consultation with indigenous organizations and leaders, as well as my staff, including Hazel, it's clear to me that one thing that corrections should do first is start to transfer those four CSC-operated healing lodges to indigenous communities or indigenous organizations.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  If the service was in full commitment to shift some of its resources, this would not happen overnight. I think you could plan over one decade to easily shift something in the neighbourhood of $500 million to build that capacity. I'm sure that, through attrition, this could be done, and through a concerted effort and support from the central agency, that would be an achievable goal.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I have to tell you that my mandate is limited to federal corrections. One thing that corrections believes is that they do not have control, which I think is accurate, of the number of people being admitted into their penitentiaries. However, where I disagree is that they do have the authority, the power and the means to effect change and to have an impact on public safety by ensuring that those incarcerated in their facilities are prepared for a safe and gradual release, and they may be able to make a significant contribution to public safety.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Thank you so much. I'd like to begin by thanking the chair and the members of this committee for agreeing to have us here to talk about my latest annual report, which includes a systemic investigation of the state of indigenous people in the federal correctional system. I am accompanied by Hazel Miron.

Public Safety committee  I'm not sure. Again, I'm not familiar with that. What I can tell you is that, for those who are designated as dangerous offenders and receive an indeterminate sentence—not a determinate followed by a long-term supervision order—the vast and great majority of them will never get out of the penitentiary.

Public Safety committee  Thank you for the question. As you mentioned, Mr. Bernardo was denied reclassification several times. We never investigated that, and we never made any recommendation with respect to having him transferred to medium. How it actually happened was, primarily, that we got involved quite late in the process because Correctional Service of Canada did not meet its policy requirement to process a request within a certain time frame, which was 60 days for a request.

Public Safety committee  Clearly, the issue persists. Over the past two months, for example, I've continued to push for Canada to ratify the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I want Canada to improve its structure by ensuring external oversight not only for the Correctional Service of Canada, but also for any detention facility in Canada.

Public Safety committee  We can now see that most Canadians agree on the underlying principles of the Correctional Service of Canada. We hear about the emphasis on rehabilitation and the fact that punishment means sending people to prison. It's as punishment, not for punishment. People agree that inmates should retain all their rights, except the restricted rights.