Agriculture committee  I would agree with that. That seems to be very consistent with the evidence we have. It does not tend to be trespassers or unwanted visitors who bring pathogens onto farms: It's often people who don't follow the rules. Mr. Steinley spoke about protocols on dairy farms. I'll note that one study showed that on Canadian dairy farms—and this was in 2019—less than 15% of farms had measures in place to limit or control visitors coming on and only half required visitors to adhere to infection minimization processes like changing boots and clothing.

Agriculture committee  Just to be clear, we don't trespass. We don't support trespassing, but it's very difficult for anyone to see what's going on to make that report in the first place. It tends to happen only when there's an undercover whistle-blower who comes forward. I'll say, just for example, that in Ontario the person who you would call if you have a concern would be at the provincial Animal Welfare Services.

Agriculture committee  I do have concerns in that situation. In Ontario and in Alberta we have these ag-gag laws that make it illegal to go undercover to work on a farm. Those laws say that you can't use a false pretense to get a position on a farm, so someone who applies for a job and doesn't disclose that they intend to film, for instance, would be offside of that law and would be committing a provincial trespass.

Agriculture committee  Yes, I would say it does seem redundant to me, and I would note that these penalties seem excessively high.

Agriculture committee  Thank you for your question. Yes, I do think that biosecurity is critically important, and I will say that as somebody who cares deeply about animals in an organization that works to enhance their protection, it's devastating to us when we learn about Avian influenza wiping out entire flocks.

Agriculture committee  Unfortunately, it's exceedingly difficult right now for anyone to report concerns about farms, and there are a couple of reasons. The first is that farms are private property, as we've repeatedly heard. Farms are not areas that the public would typically have access to, so you don't typically get a number of reports coming from the public because they simply don't go to farms.

Agriculture committee  Thank you for the question. There has been a lot of discussion about a hog farm in Quebec where it was alleged that trespassers brought in disease. There actually is no evidence of this. It was not a point in the Crown's case at trial. The judge rejected testimony from the farm owner at trial that this would have occurred.

Agriculture committee  Look, as I've said, we don't advocate on-farm trespass. I'm here today because what this bill would do is shut off undercover videos from investigations that are employment-based, where people lawfully work on the farm and expose what they see to the world. Oftentimes, unfortunately, that includes animal cruelty.

Agriculture committee  Yes. Thank you for your question. One thing that we've done through analyzing decades of CFIA data is take a close look at the things that result in biosecurity threats and diseases, and oftentimes it tends to be poor practices on farms or poor adherence to practices that are voluntary.

Agriculture committee  I've been around plenty of farmed animals.

Agriculture committee  Do you mean have I owned farmed animals—

Agriculture committee  —or have I actually farmed them? No. As I've mentioned, I'm a lawyer, not a farmer.

Agriculture committee  I'm saying that we're in the country—

Agriculture committee  I grew up in rural Prince Edward Island, so I've been on plenty of farms.

Agriculture committee  No, I didn't grow up on a farm.