Veterans Affairs committee  Yes, apparently it's being translated, I've been told.

Veterans Affairs committee  Thank you very much, members and Chair.

Veterans Affairs committee  Thank you for asking that question. In fact, I have carried out all those mechanisms. I have spoken directly with the minister personally. He was very generous in providing me with two hours of his time back at the end of March, just before the passage of the new veterans charter, and I made this point very clear to him, that the ombudsman comes first, not the bill of rights.

Veterans Affairs committee  Well, there's the ombudsman option. The most powerful tool of the ombudsman is always to bring this issue to the public eye. At the same time, I think all avenues have to be exhausted before we go that route. There is nothing wrong with the minister at this point taking it away from the ADM, thanking him for his wonderful work, and then giving it to this independent person, who could be decided on in the next two weeks—that person, or that committee, does not have to be the ombudsman.

Veterans Affairs committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Shipley. I mentioned Harold Leduc. He was hopefully the turning point in terms of the type of person VRAB is going to be appointing. He has a long-term involvement in veterans legislation, and even though he was a member of an organization and the president who started it up, he had always taken an independent and impartial view to respecting the rights of all veterans, no matter what war, rank, or age they had or where they came from.

Veterans Affairs committee  Once again, I think this is insightful and it cuts right to the heart of the matter, Mr. Perron. I agree with you 100%. This is why an ombudsman is so important. When an organization says that they represent x number of individuals, whether it be in favour of a charter or whether it be in favour of a bill of rights, Canadians trust--and I think as parliamentarians you have to trust--that they're telling you the truth, that they do actually represent the views of their membership.

Veterans Affairs committee  Yes, at this point it is. For instance, if the DND/CF ombudsman is going to be involved in the process, then this office should be sitting down right at the table to see what sorts of mechanisms are being discussed—mandate, role, vision. If it's too difficult to decide on this individual at this point, then appoint an interim independent body or a person to do such a thing, someone who would have the respect of all the political parties concerned.

Veterans Affairs committee  Would you like a comment on that, sir?

Veterans Affairs committee  I agree with you 100%. In fact, in the investigations that Mr. Marin made throughout the world, whether they be in Norway, Israel, or Germany, about the ombudsman models, and here in Canada with both private and public sector, one of the key factors was they had the big stick. Because they had it, they didn't have to use it.

Veterans Affairs committee  No, none whatsoever.

Veterans Affairs committee  I started entering the process in 1997.

Veterans Affairs committee  For sure, I know that Perry and Tom are itching to respond to this one because this is dear to everyone's heart. First, I want to say that all veterans organizations do a great service to all Canadians and the veterans they serve. At the same time, there has to be a separation.

Veterans Affairs committee  I had mentioned threats to the security of veterans coming forward. I said that personally I've experienced that. There has been a situation going on for the past 18 months, since I made the first public call for an ombudsman, where there has been a notable increase in the scrutiny, auditing, harassment, and denial mechanisms that exist in the department.

Veterans Affairs committee  VRAB is obviously a very delicate matter. As a tribunal they have to have independent authority. However, legislation and policies apply to VRAB, and resources must be managed. The oversight would ensure the legislation is being followed. I believe it was you, Mr. Rota, who pointed out in testimony last year, making the very clear point that there is no tracking of cases when VRAB makes decisions.

Veterans Affairs committee  We released a report in November; you'll see there's a chapter on three models and the pros and cons of each model--it's a pretty general approach. Since then, I've come to understand that veterans would be grateful whether it's independent or combined with DND. I want to make that point clear.