Public Accounts committee  We found that they used a lot of data over many sources and were well informed as they designed the calls. This program so far has been rolled out with seven different calls, and each call targeted a specific need, whether it was seen as a bottleneck in transportation corridors or a gap when it comes to making sure that infrastructure is climate-resilient.

Public Accounts committee  Obviously, if there are more organizations willing to support indigenous communities, they will have better chances and greater success. We didn't look at all the other agencies, since we can only look at the federal government. I can tell you that the Quebec City regional office within Indigenous Services Canada has made capacity‑building a priority, and has received increased funding for it.

Public Accounts committee  I don't think current policies and practices have kept pace with the evolution of the federal government's commitments. Existing policies predate commitments to reconciliation and self‑determination. Fundamental changes need to be made to the structure of the programs.

Public Accounts committee  When it comes to the design of the housing programs or the first nations and Inuit policing program, the policy dates back to 1996. Transport Canada said that the policy was outdated and that it wasn't flexible. Departments are aware that their internal processes and policies aren't working.

Public Accounts committee  Given my mandate, I don't comment on government policies and decisions. I can only look at the public service and how it does things. The approach to supporting self‑determination and reconciliation by taking a step back so as not to impose itself on communities doesn't help communities in need, meaning those that are smaller, that don't have the capacity or that may not be aware of programs.

Public Accounts committee  I think it's a difficult subject. It depends. There are some programs where the funding is decided in conjunction with the provinces and territories. Often when it comes to policing programs, the government respects the wishes of the province or territory. There's also a limited amount of money allocated to the provinces, and it goes back to the communities that have the ability to put their hands up to try to receive money.

Public Accounts committee  Obviously, no, I am not satisfied that they have partially agreed. We think our recommendation would improve the situation for first nations communities within the current policy framework. The department and CMHC disagreed with us because they feel the program is one of applying for funding, so it is up to communities to identify their needs and then submit an application to receive the available funding.

Public Accounts committee  First off, be aware of which communities aren't applying or don't have the capacity. If you look at many of our previous reports—whether they be about water, emergency preparedness or, here, housing and policing—they're all about programs that require communities to apply. For example, the CMHC has 13 different housing programs, so a community has to figure out which of the 13 it may be eligible for and apply individually to each of them.

Public Accounts committee  CMHC uses a funding allocation program to allocate funds to their regional offices and provinces. The 2001 census data hasn't kept up with changes in the population for many years. When CMHC updated their analysis by using the most current 2021 census data, they discovered that some provinces had been underfunded over the years while other provinces had been overfunded over the years.

Public Accounts committee  I might ask Mr. Wheeler to add on regarding the split. What I would offer up first is that back in 2021, the Assembly of First Nations, with Indigenous Services Canada, developed an estimate of what it would cost to repair and replace homes to help close the housing gap in first nations communities.

Public Accounts committee  The way the program is structured is that a first nations community has to apply for funding. If you're less likely to have a housing manager or have awareness of funding programs, you're not going to apply and you're going to receive less. We actually targeted and looked at some of the smaller communities with fewer than 100 housing units, and we found that when a community had self-assessed that more than 75% of its homes were in need of repair or replacement, those communities on average received less money than those that had better housing conditions.

Public Accounts committee  As I mentioned, we've done four audits on housing in first nations communities, and a recommendation to develop a strategy to address mould issues came from our 2006 audit. When we did a follow-up in 2011, we saw that the mould strategy wasn't being completely followed, so it has been like this since then.

Public Accounts committee  A common finding in both the policing report and the housing report is that data isn't being gathered. When you contrast it with the national trade corridors fund report, which we also released today, you will see data was used to make well-informed decisions. That's really what's needed to help support first nations communities.

Public Accounts committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be here today to discuss three reports that were just tabled in the House of Commons. I want to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. This area is also known as Ottawa.

Public Accounts committee  I'm not going to tell the committee how to carry out its business. What I can tell you is that there are rules that already exist around public servants needing to disclose whether they have other employment income sources. That disclosure is meant to ensure that there isn't a conflict of interest between the duties of a public servant and other duties that they may have.