Government Operations committee  I think there are two aspects to it. I think one is procedural, to make sure that people recognize when there is an issue and bring the issue forward. I think the other part of it is cultural, to make sure the culture within government is open to that type of conversation.

Government Operations committee  To predict when the problems will be resolved, I think there needs to be an indication that the problems are starting to reduce. We've heard today that there are some signs, perhaps, that some of that is happening, and maybe the pod approach will help, but I don't think the signs have been significant enough yet to indicate the problem has been resolved.

Government Operations committee  We do various types of audits. This audit is a performance audit. It is very much an audit of a government system, a government program, processes, and how all that rolled out. What we do in that type of audit is that we follow the paper trail. We also interview people and get corroboration on what they tell us, but we can only go so far and we can only comment on certain types of things that need to be based on what the evidence shows us.

Government Operations committee  I think the largest issue that probably caused the slow-down.... There were a couple of things. Number one was the need to have recognized that this was going to be a problem and that this was going to be a long-term problem, so not something that would be resolved quickly. The other thing about it was—again, it goes back, very much, to the audit we just released and the decision to launch Phoenix, even though the information was there, indicating that the compensation advisers couldn't handle the volume.

Government Operations committee  It's the government's decision as to what it wants to do in the long term with respect to pay, so regardless of whether it's going to stay with Phoenix or it's going to move to something else, it needs to get Phoenix stabilized. It needs to get Phoenix to the point that it is processing transactions correctly, because, obviously, if you're going to stay with Phoenix, it needs to be able to do the job.

Government Operations committee  I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it.

Government Operations committee  Again, our reach does not extend into conversations that happen in ministers' offices. Once we get into that world of cabinet confidence, we can't get there, but I think what I can say very clearly is that our audit indicated that the senior executives of the Phoenix project were controlling all of the information and the flow of information that went up.

Government Operations committee  We did look at what happened in Queensland and how they resolved it. We really looked at that as reference material to assess what was going on here, both in Public Services and Procurement Canada and in Treasury Board, to determine how the government, here in Canada, was dealing with the issue.

Government Operations committee  Thank you. Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to present the results of our audits of building and implementing the Phoenix pay system and of Phoenix pay problems. Joining me at the table is Jean Goulet, the principal who was responsible for both audits. In 2009, Public Services and Procurement Canada started its transformation of pay administration initiative to transform the way it processed pay for its 290,000 employees.

Public Accounts committee  That explanation is right. It's the move from the five-year to the 10-year passport. As more Canadians move to a 10-year passport, and the $25 fee is only charged at the time of obtaining the passport, that creates that large dip in revenues. You see in the chart, as well, that afterwards the revenues will start to go back up again.

Public Accounts committee  Actually, what we found in 70 of the 190 cases was that the consular staff did contact the detained person within 24 hours. In 10 cases there was no evidence that they ever contacted the individual. In the other 110 cases, they didn't contact the individual within 24 hours, but in about a half of those cases they had documented that they had tried to get hold of them within 24 hours.

Public Accounts committee  I will actually ask Ms. McCalla to respond to that.

Public Accounts committee  I can't comment on it. How the government wants to approaches these types of services is government policy. Whether a government decides to put it in legislation or to deal with it in another way is up to the government to decide. It's not something I have a position on one way or the other.

Public Accounts committee  Thank you. Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on consular services to Canadians abroad. This audit examined how Global Affairs Canada responded to requests for consular assistance from Canadians travelling or living abroad. Canadians requested things like help during an international crisis such as a natural disaster, new travel documents to replace lost or stolen passports, or even assistance because they had been arrested or detained abroad.

Public Accounts committee  In the course of our audit, again, we made a number of recommendations that would be aimed at fixing process. That's one thing. In the message, that's where we identified that Phoenix should not have happened. There should not have been any way for Phoenix to happen, given all the different controls that exist within government, but somehow it did happen.