Industry committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to start with Mr. Katz. Mr. Katz, you've written that South Africa's fair use rights should be a model for the world. Could you explain what their framework is and why you think other countries should copy it?

Industry committee  Okay, thank you for that. I'm sure we'll have many duelling banjo questions for the two of you, so thank you very much.

Industry committee  Mr. Chair, we've heard quite eloquently from the member for Oshawa about the need for us to be with the community and to show some leadership in recognizing the wider economic benefit of that industry, not just in Oshawa but in this province and this country. I am disappointed to hear that members opposite don't believe that we can be leaders in helping to foment that reaction so that the community can benefit from ongoing economic development.

Industry committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses today. I'm just going to move a motion, so we can have a conversation on a very important subject. The motion reads: That the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), undertake a study of no less than 4 meetings to investigate the impacts of the announced closure of the General Motors plant in Oshawa, and its impacts on the wider economy and province of Ontario.

Industry committee  In your opinion, should we continue to consider this, or should we wait for the court case?

Industry committee  Thank you.

Industry committee  Mr. Hayes, I'm going back to the charitable exemption. Say you have a major festival that's charging big dollars for people to come in to hear a musician who may be using someone else's work. That's then surrounded with an exemption that it's for charitable purposes. I don't know about you, but at least where I come from, charitable purposes are about feeding people—either their minds or their stomachs.

Industry committee  What's the proportionality, though, where there should be some sort of formal test? Someone just can't say they're doing this for charitable purposes.

Industry committee  When there's no one other than the people who are attending that pay for the tickets...?

Industry committee  Yes.

Industry committee  Isn't it our job, though, to look and see what kinds of behaviours are appropriate and what are not and then to set the law? The court may have at least captured it within the context of that particular case, but I do just want to push back and say that not all charitable purposes are equal.

Industry committee  If someone is running something similar to a commercial enterprise, there should be some questioning of whether or not it has a charitable purpose. I thank you for your comments on it. Professor de Beer, going back to a problem with contracts versus a problem with copyright, you've clearly said that a lot of this is on the contracts.

Industry committee  That's fair enough. Again, we're discussing Crown copyright. I don't see this as being as big an issue, whether it be the Parliament of Canada or the Government of Canada. From what I've seen from some of the briefs we've had is that it seems to be certain courts—not all are the same—and their reporting functions, and some provinces.

Industry committee  Just read up on it.

Industry committee  You stated before the heritage committee that educational authors earned virtually nothing from their works and that publishers get all the rights and, obviously, profits when they sell the work to academic institutions. How can the Copyright Act address this?