Public Accounts committee  I would expect that would be ongoing over the year, but that would be something to look at with the department, how they do that.

Public Accounts committee  I would remind the committee too that this audit was undertaken at a request from the committee, so it was in response to concerns that were raised here that we looked at this contract.

Public Accounts committee  I would encourage the committee to receive assurance from the departments that efforts are under way to identify all those who have overpaid and that reimbursement will be made to them. There was an agreement with the recommendation that this be done, but we have not seen any action taken to date, and I think it would be good if the committee followed up on that.

Public Accounts committee  Chapter 4.

Public Accounts committee  I believe the programs are necessary because there are certain norms and certain behaviours that are not acceptable in the public service but could be acceptable, for example, in the private sector. So I think it is important that there be those sessions and those discussions with public servants just to remind them of what is acceptable, that there are different codes of behaviour, that there are things that you can do in certain enterprises that you can't do in the public service.

Public Accounts committee  Yes. We did not encounter any problems. People were very cooperative.

Public Accounts committee  We could review the process again when the contract expires, if that's what the committee wants. I also think it would be a good idea for the committee to request a follow up on the reimbursement of overpayments made by Canadian Forces members and others.

Public Accounts committee  We didn't look into this particular situation per se, although I'm told that Canadian Forces and RCMP members are free to do business with whatever company they like.

Public Accounts committee  It's pretty unusual, actually, yes.

Public Accounts committee  Perhaps. This again is for these management services. We indicated that over a six-year period there were less than 200 of them. So there are not thousands of people necessarily affected by this, but the people, obviously.... It's the individual who pays for these services, so a member of the Canadian Forces who paid $8,000 unnecessarily was obviously affected.

Public Accounts committee  Out of their own pocket, that's right.

Public Accounts committee  There's a very significant backlog, that's right. They have not gone through the proper verification before paying the amount, or shortly thereafter. So the management of the contract afterwards is also not satisfactory.

Public Accounts committee  If I could just make a comment on what you said earlier, in my experience, limited as it is, in the public service, I have found that the people who process those travel claims do a very rigorous review of things and are very diligent in what they do. I can't believe that somebody at some point didn't question some of those expenses, quite honestly.

Public Accounts committee  I agree that the legislation is probably required now and that people see a need for it. I'm personally a little skeptical. I think recourse to whistle-blowing legislation is almost an indication that the system itself has failed, that people don't feel comfortable enough within their own organizations to be able to report wrongdoing.

Public Accounts committee  Senior managers have to. There's the expression, “tone at the top”, and senior managers have to deal with this. Senior managers saw what was going on in this case and didn't do that.