Information & Ethics committee  I have seen no evidence that would support that. Based on the evidence that's in the public domain, I'm very skeptical of that being the motive behind this donation. It should be borne in mind that the same donor made, a year or two earlier, a donation to the University of Toronto of $800,000 to honour Norman Bethune, a Canadian who had a role in China.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't know. The explanation that was given to me—I have this second-hand—is that once the original news articles appeared in, I think, 2016 or 2017, raising questions about whether this might have been intended for some kind of political influence, neither the donor nor the foundation management pursued the notion of the seminars originally intended and originally discussed in what I'm told was the run-up to the donation.

Information & Ethics committee  They all work together. There have been no government members for a number of years on the board. We are left with the regular members, which I believe are 14, and two family members named by the family. The interplay among them and between them is.... There is no distinction.

Information & Ethics committee  I'm chair of the board. I cannot and must not be involved in every detail of—

Information & Ethics committee  Right.

Information & Ethics committee  I believe I can rely on assurances from others more closely involved as to what has been done and whether what has been done is proper.

Information & Ethics committee  It was very much to do our best to establish an independent outside review of the entire matter and all the circumstances around it.

Information & Ethics committee  No, it would have been.... I would say that it's well under way—

Information & Ethics committee  Right, to the best of my knowledge.

Information & Ethics committee  If the allegations were correct, then there would be an arguable case that it was an attempt at influence—if they are correct.

Information & Ethics committee  You can't question them; this is an article that quotes someone quoting a conversation that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service allegedly recorded.

Information & Ethics committee  It's neither one nor the other, because I have my own point of view. As I told you, as far as I know, there was no attempt to influence the foundation.

Information & Ethics committee  I cannot comment...

Information & Ethics committee  I really can't comment on that. I don't—

Information & Ethics committee  Yes.