Transport committee  I'm going to look to my colleagues to nod yes or no for me, but personally, I'm not aware of any accidents, and I can see from my colleagues that they aren't either.

Transport committee  I'll ask Ms. Campbell to expand on my answer if I don't go far enough or if my answer is incorrect. During our audit, we talked to the United Kingdom about the system they had in place. As we mentioned in our opening remarks, the Canada Energy Regulator is starting to look at effectiveness components.

Transport committee  I think it's important to start by differentiating between the safety management system and an inspection. An inspection looks at the equipment, the tracks, the equipment, the crossings, and whether they're operating as intended or are defective or need to be repaired. The safety management system, as I said, is about the culture, that big framework within an organization.

Transport committee  I might ask Dawn to join in on the answer. I'm not sure I'm an expert on the movement of oil across rail. However, what I can at least offer you, before we let Dawn take the answer, is that the more wear and tear you have on rail, the more they might need to be replaced. That's just the common-sense answer.

Transport committee  Yes, you are correct. The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is an assistant auditor general within my office. I regularly engage with the commissioner as he selects audits and tables them. The audit you refer to was the follow-up audit on the transportation of dangerous goods which the interim commissioner of the environment and sustainable development tabled back in November 2020.

Transport committee  I'm not sure I know that quote, but I'll answer a question about safety management systems and the importance that I think they play. As I mentioned earlier, a safety management system really is a way of mainstreaming day-to-day safety within a railway company. It's a framework that lists goals and targets, but it's a framework for safety thinking.

Transport committee  Perhaps Ms. Campbell or Ms. Marsolais can answer your question. I haven't compared the statistics, so I can't give you a fact-based answer. Would one of my colleagues like to answer the question?

Transport committee  If you'd like, we could make these comparisons for you. That said, these comparisons would be based on statistics taken out of context and might not allow for proper analysis.

Transport committee  Duly noted. Thank you.

Transport committee  Your summary is correct. We found two gaps in the oversight. First, Transport Canada didn't assess the effectiveness of the safety management systems. Second, it didn't assess whether all of its additional oversight activities had improved overall safety. Why is this important?

Transport committee  When looking at the statistics on the number of accidents, it's important to consider where each accident occurred. In some cases, accidents don't happen on public rails. So I would recommend not just looking at one piece of data, because you have to understand the whole context around it.

Transport committee  Absolutely. I'll start that off, and maybe I'll ask Ms. Campbell if she would like to join in. She did some consultations with other countries throughout our audit. As I mentioned in my opening statement, it is a trend in the industry to start measuring effectiveness, and not just to measure actions, and make sure there is corrective behaviour.

Transport committee  Thank you for your question. In our audit, we found that the department had made significant progress. It increased the number of inspections, ensured that its oversight approach is risk-based and increased the number of audits on the safety management systems. So the department has made a good investment of its time and resources to respond to our recommendations and fill in the gaps identified in 2013.

Transport committee  During our audit, we actually saw that they collected additional data from railway companies about compliance. Where they fell short was in actually then using that data to inform some of their risk-based planning. In fact, when they completed more audits of safety management systems, we didn't see them using the results of those audits to inform future inspections.

Transport committee  I do believe that looking at the statistics is just one part of assessing the safety of railways. You do have to consider, as you mentioned, the number of accidents, the types of accidents and how they relate to rail traffic. That's one indicator. Then you also have to look at other measures that contribute to rail safety.