Transport committee  That's an excellent question. I'm not the only party who told Transport Canada it needed to measure effectiveness. This committee has done it. The Transportation Safety Board has done it. The Treasury Board directives expect every organization to measure its effectiveness. I would even draw an analogy to some of the reports that I just tabled related to the government's response to COVID-19.

Transport committee  I think that's a great question that you should also ask Transport Canada. They're the transportation experts. They should try to find a way to properly measure the system's effectiveness. I certainly agree with you that it's probably not a single metric that would measure the overall effectiveness of safety oversight activities.

Transport committee  The vast majority of recommendations have begun to be implemented. I would say that a few of them have been well implemented, such as increasing the number of inspections and subsequent follow-up. There would still be gaps in terms of how to use the data collected to inform future decisions.

Transport committee  That's where Transport Canada doesn't measure its effectiveness, so it's impossible for us to answer that question.

Transport committee  I'd like to make a clarification. Exhibit 5.5, which is on page 19 of the French version of the report, doesn't include all of our office's recommendations, but the recommendations of several groups. Your committee has made recommendations, and my office conducted an audit in 2013.

Transport committee  I think I would refer you to the report of the interim commissioner of the environment and sustainable development on the transportation of dangerous goods. In that report, he looked at the transportation of dangerous goods through many modes, including through pipeline. All modes have inherent risks.

Transport committee  I'm going to look to my colleagues to nod yes or no for me, but personally, I'm not aware of any accidents, and I can see from my colleagues that they aren't either.

Transport committee  I'll ask Ms. Campbell to expand on my answer if I don't go far enough or if my answer is incorrect. During our audit, we talked to the United Kingdom about the system they had in place. As we mentioned in our opening remarks, the Canada Energy Regulator is starting to look at effectiveness components.

Transport committee  I think it's important to start by differentiating between the safety management system and an inspection. An inspection looks at the equipment, the tracks, the equipment, the crossings, and whether they're operating as intended or are defective or need to be repaired. The safety management system, as I said, is about the culture, that big framework within an organization.

Transport committee  I might ask Dawn to join in on the answer. I'm not sure I'm an expert on the movement of oil across rail. However, what I can at least offer you, before we let Dawn take the answer, is that the more wear and tear you have on rail, the more they might need to be replaced. That's just the common-sense answer.

Transport committee  Yes, you are correct. The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is an assistant auditor general within my office. I regularly engage with the commissioner as he selects audits and tables them. The audit you refer to was the follow-up audit on the transportation of dangerous goods which the interim commissioner of the environment and sustainable development tabled back in November 2020.

Transport committee  I'm not sure I know that quote, but I'll answer a question about safety management systems and the importance that I think they play. As I mentioned earlier, a safety management system really is a way of mainstreaming day-to-day safety within a railway company. It's a framework that lists goals and targets, but it's a framework for safety thinking.

Transport committee  Perhaps Ms. Campbell or Ms. Marsolais can answer your question. I haven't compared the statistics, so I can't give you a fact-based answer. Would one of my colleagues like to answer the question?

Transport committee  If you'd like, we could make these comparisons for you. That said, these comparisons would be based on statistics taken out of context and might not allow for proper analysis.

Transport committee  Duly noted. Thank you.