Public Safety committee  I think so, because it would provide case law over time. It would provide some direction. It would actually act as a discipline measure in how the refusal is done.

Public Safety committee  Exactly.

Public Safety committee  I think that's a very easy fix in the legislation. To say meetings are to be held in private.... The bill should probably have the open court principle and open by default in mind and say that meetings should be held in public except in those.... I think it's more of a perception as well for the functioning of the committee and the transparency around the committee.

Public Safety committee  Yes.

Public Safety committee  Yes. We haven't detailed what that section 15 entails, but it's a very broad definition. It has multiple subsections dealing with military tactics and strategy, quantity, characteristics, capabilities, deployment of weapons. A very long list of things are included in that provision.

Public Safety committee  That's somewhat the point I'm trying to make. The experience we've had in reviewing these records is that there are significant over-claims.

Public Safety committee  The more specific it can be, the better it's going to be. I think it would be important to recognize that the committee is also there to serve the public interest in the oversight of security agencies—and that's what I'm not seeing in the bill—and to have the possibility of the review of those decisions.

Public Safety committee  Yes. If you want to be more surgical, I have less of a concern when we're dealing with human sources, if that remains there in protecting this type of information. The two I have the most concerns with are paragraph 14(b), because that's very broad, and also paragraph 14(e), dealing with ongoing investigations, everything that can be excluded under the Security of Information Act, because that's—

Public Safety committee  I agree.

Public Safety committee  That's what I am reading there, yes.

Public Safety committee  I think so.

Public Safety committee  It just seems to me that there could be a political decision to refuse to disclose information to the security committee. If that is the wish of Parliament, then that's what will happen. In my view, that is going to undermine the work of the committee. That's my own personal view.

Public Safety committee  I think the example that we have—and I am sure most of us will remember—was when the parliamentary committee wanted to review the situation of Afghan detainees. That led to Speaker Milliken's ruling. I think that was a very difficult time. This was an ongoing national security and national defence issue, a military issue.

Public Safety committee  It does.

Public Safety committee  It's a review. We basically investigate the government's decisions on disclosure.