Environment committee  It basically seems to confirm to some extent what Nicholas Stern was saying, that is, that if we don't move quickly to counter climate change and reduce greenhouse gases, the cost will be considerable. Am I to understand that if we don't comply with the two-degree rule, we'll lose? Applying the two-degree rule could actually cause us to lose some growth, but at the same time, if we don't apply the rule, we risk losing even more in that regard.

Environment committee  On that note, I want to ask all four of you, very quickly--because you all made either direct or oblique references to the need for a coherent plan--do either of you have in your possession, after 46 months, a plan from this government on a domestic climate change response? Mr. Hornung, can you start very quickly--yes, no, if you have one?

Environment committee  My job as a consultant is to develop policy and regulatory recommendations. I think I do my job well. I have been working on climate change for 15 years, and it's the biggest issue of the day for me. What's the reality? The reality is that 80% of the reported large industrial emitter emissions, 67% of all industry emissions including those that are not reported at a facility level, and 30% of all national emissions originate in plants that are located in 30 communities.

Environment committee  Right. I disagree with you on the extent of reductions from climate change-specific actions in Europe. I mean, it is true that they tax their gasoline consumers heavily and that they have lots of mass transit and all that stuff. They do a lot of good things.

Environment committee  One of the representatives was talking about the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. He was talking about the numbers and the predictions, and he said that what we've seen during the global economic recession is a decrease in the amount of carbon dioxide emissions.

Environment committee  Now, I appreciate your candour on the issue of pricing, on how pricing is going to be an essential element of how we're going to get to move forward to meet these climate change challenges. Bob Page, when he came to us, talked about $100 a tonne as being the number we'd have to look for as a price on carbon with the current targets that the government has put forward.

Environment committee  Is it fair to say that you have a fairly good understanding of the direction that the federal government is going in with respect to our public policy direction to tackle climate change?

Environment committee  But how you lay those costs on society can be more destructive or less destructive than the jobs you create. In terms of the things we need to do to address climate change, our basic orientation is let's get going on pricing. Let's ramp up with the rest of the major economies of the world. Let's invest in technology. If we're successful in advancing technology, then we'll be in a position to start deploying that as the world steps up its effort and raises the price of carbon over time.

Environment committee  I just came back from Copenhagen, and over the weekend was at an environmental conference put on by Globe International—it's just weeks away from 192 countries, thousands of people, going to Copenhagen looking for a new international agreement on climate change—and I was very proud of our aggressive targets, a 20% reduction by 2020 and a harmonized approach with the United States. It was my first time in Copenhagen. I always like to look ahead to see what they're doing.

Environment committee  Are we not ensuring that the Canadian economy will remain in the Stone Age in terms of its development, while the United States, in the meantime, is adapting its tax and regulatory regimes? Let's talk about the flight of capital, because it is often said that climate change regulations result in an outflow of capital. In the final analysis, is our current policy not resulting in an outflow of capital that could be invested in the industries and technologies of the future, such as sustainable and environmentally-friendly energy?

Environment committee  Michael Martin, who is the chief negotiator and the ambassador for climate change for Canada, last week shared Canada's briefing package, as Mr. McGuinty mentioned, for Copenhagen. He reported that Canada will replace 90% of electricity needs, without emitting greenhouse gases, by 2020 and that we will meet that commitment by fuel-switching away from coal.

Environment committee  Over the last 12 years, we have had discussions with representatives of a variety of industries. Many of them are of the view that, when it comes to climate change, there is nothing worse than uncertainty. Whether you are in the forest or oil industries, uncertainty causes considerable harm in regulatory terms. We are in favour of regulations, but we would also like to see them come into force as quickly as possible.

Environment committee  The second round of questions for you, or the theme is, gentlemen, the government now has changed its message around climate change to assert there's a North American greenhouse gas target. In both cases, your CAPP equivalent, Mr. Hyndman, in the United States, and Mr. Turk, your CEA equivalent in the United States, have you heard any talk or reference with your colleagues, your sister organizations, whatever they're called, in Washington?

Environment committee  I ask the same question of every witness who is appearing on Bill C-311. I just want to get it on the record. Do either of you have in your possession a climate change plan from the present government--after 46 months in office almost to the day today--to address all of the different elements that you have raised in both of your presentations? Is there a plan, and can you share it with us?

Environment committee  We will be continuing with our study of Bill C-311. With us today is Rick Hyndman, the senior policy advisor on climate change and air issues with the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, or CAPP. Welcome. From the Canadian Electricity Association, we have Eli Turk, vice-president, government relations.