Transport committee  I contracted a company to do that, and we provided a list of Transport Canada inspectors because we wanted to survey only the people who were actually civil aviation inspectors at Transport Canada.

Transport committee  There were 377.

Transport committee  Yes, that's our concern. The industry members will largely be monitoring themselves. Our inspectors will be redirected from the direct actual operations, from looking at that through audits, inspections, and surveillance programs. They will be redirected to reviewing SMS programs and looking at the systems and structure.

Transport committee  Approximately 470 right now.

Transport committee  These inspectors I'm referring to are the inspectors who are pilots. There are other inspectors in Transport Canada who have other areas of expertise—aviation maintenance engineers, cabinet safety experts, dangerous good experts—but the numbers and information that I've given to you exclusively have to do with our pilot members.

Transport committee  If you go through the documents I've tabled before you today, every single one of them justifies the movement of SMS and the switch to it as a way to redirect the resources away from the activities we're doing now to SMS. You're not going to do both.

Transport committee  Do I have any numbers for you? What specific numbers are you looking for, sir?

Transport committee  No. Transport Canada doesn't share their financial figures with us.

Transport committee  I'm not speculating. I'm giving you the documents from the department that show you they've shut down these programs. What the specific cost of those programs is I don't specifically know, because that information is not available to me from the department. They do not share their financial records with me.

Transport committee  Yes, I think that Brian's comments are quite correct. SMS does offer the potential to exceed the regulatory standards, and that's a good thing. ICAO was advocating a two-pronged approach to civil aviation authorities around the world: not only promote SMS, but maintain a strong and robust set of regulatory and safety oversight tools being exercised by the civil aviation authority of the state.

Transport committee  That's exactly what I'm saying, that the system is being scaled back and shut down systematically over the last couple of years, and the plan is to continue to do so, because they simply do not have enough resources to bring SMS on line and continue with the traditional checks and balances.

Transport committee  If I could have the opportunity to respond as well, I think somebody might have misinterpreted our approach here. We're not against SMS. SMS is a good idea. I agree with the vast majority of comments that have been expressed about SMS. What we're talking about here today is that the system of regulatory checks and balances has to be maintained while we're bringing SMS on line.

Transport committee  Right.

Transport committee  That's correct.

Transport committee  If you turn to tab 9 of our presentation brief, you'll see what our membership numbers indicate for Transport Canada inspectors. They are on the decline, but I don't get a sense that it's about a departmental program to specifically eliminate wholesale sections of people. But the demographics are what they are; people are going to be leaving on an ongoing basis.