Government Operations committee  We've done the math on what kind of pension they'd receive. If they took their pension and retired at the same age as someone who came in after high school, they would be severely negatively affected by the pension.

Government Operations committee  In one word, yes. To give a rationale to that, during that whole period of time there's an opportunity cost to going to university, especially for master's and PhDs. These people are graduating with $90,000 to $120,000 worth of student debt. During the time they are studying, they cannot work in another capacity.

Government Operations committee  If I could just add to that, those members hired by the federal government, who work in the professional areas, come in with master's and PhDs. If they had been hired by the federal government when they had bachelor's degrees and then went back for training and education, those years of service would have counted.

Government Operations committee  The reason we brought up some of the statistics from the United States is that they're facing the same problem we are. They're actively recruiting mid-level managers, and they're actively recruiting scientists. To go back to what Mr. Corbett said before, they spend a lot more money on doing science.

Government Operations committee  Yes, exactly. Furthermore, we are of the opinion that labs don't have enough money. There have been cuts for years now. They are not as happy as they might be.

Government Operations committee  The science and technology management secretariat surveyed their members--we alluded to this in our presentation--and asked their managers which professions they'll have a hard time filling in the next three to five years. The first one was researchers, so people doing basic research.

Government Operations committee  I would like to add something. I have visited—

Government Operations committee  Yes, exactly. I spoke to researchers that work there—and particularly a post-doctoral researcher who is now on his fifth term contract with the Institute. As my colleagues from the Public Service Alliance of Canada were saying, he was a student, not a public servant, but he was between the age of 35 and 40.

Government Operations committee  We represent members who work in the professional positions. For the most part, we still see women very much underrepresented in the scientific fields. Because they do work for a union, if they do get in, the salaries are the same. In terms of the amount of women, or the amount of people from the equity groups, they are not being hired.

Government Operations committee  It goes back to the answer our colleagues gave earlier. As Mr. Dewar brought up, even the professionals are hired under temp agencies. We may have biologists and chemists and doctors hired under temp agencies, which don't have to follow the equity rules. The professionals may be hired full time afterwards, circumventing all of the equity goals put there in the first place.