Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  It was Jacobs.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Well, they may file a complaint about discrimination in employment and services, like anyone else, subject to this section 67 qualification right now. That's what we're debating here.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Are you suggesting, then, that someone might file a complaint against the Indian Act itself on the basis of race?

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  First of all, the complaints system doesn't work quite like that. The charter is an instrument that is constitutional in nature, by which you can challenge specific provisions of an act of Parliament. Under the Human Rights Act what you would challenge is a discriminatory employment decision or a discriminatory failure to provide you with service because of your race.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Certainly that's a broader question, but there have been complaints filed about employment, and those redress mechanisms are available. There are complaints that have proceeded through--the Jacobs case and others--in which some relief has been obtained. In other cases, though, section 67 has been the barrier to any relief.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I'll just finalize by saying that in the Gordon case the barrier was not in the inability of access to the tribunal, but it was the barrier of section 67 because a band has the power to distribute property on its reserve.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  What I was specifically referring to, I think, was the reference to indigenous legal traditions and customary laws--which we really don't have at our fingertips--that could have the effect of actually changing some of the protections that are currently offered in the act.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I can't go too much farther than that. I can mention, though, a case from the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal involving Peter and Trudy Jacobs. Peter was adopted into the Mohawk band. He affiliated very closely with the Mohawk people. He learned the language, longhouse traditions, and so on.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I think I've mentioned that subsection 16(1) does provide for special programs to develop the concerns of those who have been generally disadvantaged in the past, in this case perhaps because of their race, and it allows for a certain development of economic opportunity. I mentioned also the aboriginal employment preferences policy, which attempts to develop that.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I suppose I can't name you anything off the top.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I certainly can't speak from a general knowledge of aboriginal tradition. I know a bit more about the Human Rights Act. As it stands, its essence is to ensure substantive equality to people on all the eleven grounds, including race or national/ethnic origin.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I'm not quite sure; are you suggesting that the interpretive provision might be used to create discrimination?

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I suppose, first of all, it depends on the nature of the interpretive clause. It is possible, if you get into something like the adoption of other laws or other rules from other sources, you can have something that is retrograde to the kinds of protections provided in the Human Rights Act.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  I might just add another point, and that relates to paragraph (f) of the motion. Once again, the Canadian Human Rights Act deals with fairly simple things: employment and services. Although hearings can get long, as is usually the case in legal matters, the act does provide within itself the prohibitions of discrimination, and it also provides defences for employers and for service providers to bring a broader perspective, a community perspective, or just simply the employer's perspective, in defence.

Indigenous and Northern Affairs committee  Well, I think that's the inference from what I've said. That's about as far as I can take it, but I think you got the point.