Public Safety committee  We have to understand that everyone thinks the gold standard of death investigation is the autopsy. It isn't. It's the history, the scene, and the body. With the situation you're speaking of, the multiple applications of tasers, this would be the taser that's held against the skin.

Public Safety committee  That would be a tough one. I don't know if they would die for certain, but if they did, could I prove it? I think “I don't know” is the best answer.

Public Safety committee  The reality is that many of us gathered here probably take some medication. I take insulin as a diabetic, I take Aspirin to make sure my heart stays good, and I take a drug to lower cholesterol. Each one of these drugs has killed. We know that, but I still take them, because when you have to balance the risk of that illness or death occurring versus the benefits to me as an individual, they still come out in my favour.

Public Safety committee  As you know, with the media there's always another side that you may not be aware of. I'm not sure, Dr. McCallum, if you can add to that.

Public Safety committee  Women are smarter than men. They just don't do this stuff.

Public Safety committee  They just don't do the dumb things we men do that get themselves into that situation. I don't have an explanation for it. I'm sorry.

Public Safety committee  Just to give an example, we had mentioned earlier that at least with respect to the deaths, we've never seen one in a woman, but I have heard from a police officer of a case of clearly excited delirium in a 16- or 17-year-old girl. It took, I believe he said, three or four police officers to get her under control.

Public Safety committee  Yes. The role of coroners, medical examiners, and forensic pathologists is to be independent, to not take sides. At the end of the day, we'll have an opinion, and when that opinion is challenged--and each one of you, through your questions, are clarifying and challenging views that we've put forward--it's our job to be fair and honest and give you everything.

Public Safety committee  That's correct. I presented the one case, yes.

Public Safety committee  That's my other hesitation. The word “penultimate” has been used here. The taser is the choice that a police officer has before pulling his gun. And if the taser is not working, I don't know. If it's a case of excited delirium and you really feel that's what it is, perhaps back off, because you hate to see the gun come out.

Public Safety committee  No, I have no association at all. I can tell you I was quite amazed. I spoke about excited delirium and tasers at a conference that our office puts on every two years. It's training for medical investigators and police. I spoke, and I really didn't say anything different from what I've said to you folks today, but there was a member of the press there and they did an article that balanced, to me quite nicely, the issue of tasers and the issue of excited delirium, and they mentioned my name.

Public Safety committee  As physicians, we are essentially not allowed to do that. If you're writing a research paper for any journal, any grant you receive you must declare up front, and that's to rule out the conflict of interest that you are suggesting: “My project was funded by”--we'll say--“Taser, and I found that tasers are really great devices.”

Public Safety committee  The one thing to realize with excited delirium, and I mentioned this before, is that the adrenalin level is so high already that I'm not really sure that anything else we do can elevate it even more. I can't prove that; it's just a sense I have, but maybe I can add something....

Public Safety committee  I haven't heard of it. I will acknowledge that Taser is very aggressive in defending its reputation. I attended a conference in Seattle--and I mentioned that two years ago--where Taser was presenting. The conference included Taser International, the American Civil Liberties Union, and, I think, Amnesty International.

Public Safety committee  I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's what happens. You're almost implying an additive effect. Part of what you're saying is that because you touched that electrical source, your adrenalin levels are high. If someone came into the room and said “boo” or scared you, because of the increased adrenalin levels, could you have an arrhythmia and potentially die?