Finance committee  I'm a renewable energy guy, so I can't really comment on oil sands. To the extent that I can, I will say that I think we have seen some improvements, but I think we're concerned about the pace of development compared to the pace of those improvements. We have seen things going....

Finance committee  It doesn't run right now, not yet, no.

Finance committee  It would run effectively in the same way--

Finance committee  You can look at Europe, where there are similar examples, and there's also a web page called GreenBonds.ca.

Finance committee  There's no reason you couldn't.

Finance committee  It would be the federal government that would set it up in the same way as Canada Savings Bonds are administered. You would have to set up criteria in terms of who could apply for those sets of programs, who could ultimately invest.

Finance committee  The government has to backstop it. The government backstopping is really what makes it function. Someone with a credit rating like the federal government's needs to set it up and set the rules for it.

Finance committee  I don't think you can say that no one is suggesting those things aren't real issues. I think there definitely are other NGOs that deal with those issues. Most of those, particularly urban issues, are more local issues, and it's difficult for the federal government to get involved in urban sprawl, but I think the one tool that the government does have is to start putting a price on things we don't want.

Finance committee  Maybe I'm not understanding the question. Are you referring to ENMAX's...?

Finance committee  Right. Well, I think that particular example, or the other programs.... ENMAX is a good example of a utility that is doing some pretty progressive things, but they've had to apply for some money to do some of those programs, and I think that's an example of how a green bonds type of initiative would enable companies to have a pool of capital.

Finance committee  I'll just make one really quick comment. I think the one thing we should put back on the table is this question: what is the strategy for Canada's energy development? We talk about the shale gas opportunities in Quebec and the oil sands development in Alberta. We don't have a strategy in terms of why we are developing these resources and what our ultimate goal is.

Finance committee  We did an analysis of both budgets for the past two years and found, in comparing the States and Canada—there was other analysis that compared Europe to Canada and other countries—that by and large the investments were in the energy efficiency realm. We did it on a per capita basis; obviously the United States is 10 times the size of Canada.

Finance committee  Thanks for the question. It is a difficult concept, the financing of some of these projects, particularly when projects make sense economically on their own—and that's often the case. In energy efficiency there are projects that will pay for themselves. So when you look at it on a balance sheet, it can be puzzling as to why people wouldn't invest in some of those projects.

Finance committee  No, I don't think that's where most of the money has gone. It has certainly been a real cost, but I think it's an absolutely necessary cost if you want to make sure the right work--the targeted work--is done and you're verifying what the results are. There's no point inputting money to a program if you're not going to monitor its results.

Finance committee  Yes, absolutely. You need to make sure you're getting value for your money as a government. You need to make sure the actual work is done and done properly.