Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  There are a couple of things. First of all, the inspectors historically, when they see a piece of machinery they don't feel is cleaned properly, don't refer to the manufacturer's specifications to see whether they should be ordering it taken apart or not. If they think it needs to be taken apart to be cleaned, they simply order it taken apart to be cleaned.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  Yes, it's the collection of data. Again, you have to have time for the inspector to actually see those data. When you talk about intermittent finds, you're talking about a high percentage of product positives that were coming off that line and out of that facility, which even Michael McCain suggests now he didn't realize was a problem.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  No. What has been changed now is the requirement for the plant to bring these to the attention of the inspector, rather like what was in the old manual prior to the plant's taking over that function in 2005. However, the resources needed to do all the monitoring of the tests by the inspectors hasn't changed.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  It doesn't do the trick.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  Well, I have direct feedback from some directors at CFIA who say, there's no way I'm hiring front-line people with that money; I'm hiring biologists who are going to sit here at regional office so they can keep me informed.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  You're probably accurate in terms of your math. Unfortunately, the money went elsewhere. And I know I heard--I can't remember who said it--that somewhere around 14% of the people were destined for meat inspection. The people who were hired in meat inspection lately were to replace people who were leaving or to fill long-standing vacancies.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  I would agree. And it's not with the system that we're finding we have a problem; all we're saying is, do the system. You wrote a great system; do it. Make sure you have the resources to do it and do it the way you say it's supposed to be done.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  It was. That has been redistributed. I believe now that's the only facility this person has in Toronto. So there have been some adjustments in the Greater Toronto Area--not enough to actually carry out the program the way it's written, but there have been some adjustments made.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  Correct. And the paperwork part of the process, the evaluation of lab results from Maple Leaf, or just the reading of thermograph results or other reports that they can find while they're sitting in the office, is valuable work. They do have to see what the company is reporting.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  There were none that I ever was privy to. None were ever shared with us, and we did have a consultative forum where that information would have been shared. The answer is no.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  I know I was asked if I could guarantee it. Well, basically you have the system, the CVS, the compliance verification system, with all its component pieces that, when added up, are supposed to provide a more scientifically based and rigorous inspection program. All we're saying is that if you're going to write this system and put all these component pieces together, have the resources to actually do it.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  That they were not looked at. That's true.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  There was organic material on and in those cutting machines, yes.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  The listeria was found deep inside. Symptoms of not cleaning can be seen easier than that and often are. That's why machines are ordered taken apart.

Subcommittee on Food Safety committee  The plant employees were. CFIA inspectors don't, because they know better.