Human Resources committee  That's a very good question, because you could argue it both ways. Some of the measures we talked about were introduced before this legislation. We were just talking about the day care offer and family allowances. That being said, the major transformation of the transfer system came with the first action plan, in 2004, and it is my conviction that without the law....

Human Resources committee  I think there were various factors, but the law required that they produce an action plan, so they had to say something. Eventually, they also realized that there was broad support in public opinion. So the law prompted governments to act, and it also consolidated in public opinion the idea that you can do something.

Human Resources committee  I have just one more point. With one of my students, I looked at the various national election plans in 15 countries in Europe. There were all kinds of ways social programs in these different countries were organized. But on certain matters, there was a clear difference between the countries that made a legislative commitment and those that did not, and you see the result in the policies that have been adopted, in the way work is supplemented or not, and what has happened.

Human Resources committee  Certainly the government is aware. If you look at the last bilan of the action plan, it starts with the recognition that single persons have been sort of left behind. There is a will to do better, but I think it will be harder. It's a large group of people. It's a question of incentives and so on.

Human Resources committee  Yes. Normally, I would say, from what I've read about what goes on in Europe, politicians do not like to have targets too specific.

Human Resources committee  The first steps that were taken, in terms of making work pay, were along the lines of employment benefits for people who work with low pay. More recently, the Quebec government presented an employment pact, in agreement with unions and employers. Of course, this was designed just before rumours of a recession started, but the aim of the strategy was, in collaboration with unions and employers, to develop training integration measures for the people who are either more distanced from the labour market or have specific obstacles.

Human Resources committee  No, I cannot.

Human Resources committee  I could find out from my papers, but that would not be up to date.

Human Resources committee  I am having difficulties hearing. Maybe if you move closer to your microphone.... But this will be translated, right?

Human Resources committee  It's just the noise in the room.

Human Resources committee  We don't know, because the target for 2013 is an abstract sort of target: to be among the best. It's not a target with a specific number. Also, when the target was set, there was no agreed-upon indicator. Canada doesn't have an official measure of poverty, and of course Quebec doesn't either.

Human Resources committee  I guess you are right that it may not be good to have targets that are too narrow, but at the same time maybe it's better to have targets than to have none. To keep on the example of children, the discussion in Canada has often been focused on taking children out of poverty. To some extent it is vocabulary, but the Quebec policies are focused on families rather than on children.

Human Resources committee  The definition you just gave is actually the definition of poverty in the law, and the law, if I remember correctly.... I'm not even sure the law defines “social exclusion”. I work with the Centre for the Study of Poverty and Exclusion in Quebec, and we've come up with various recommendations for indicators of poverty—indicators of inequality also, because one thing we had just last week was a presentation by Jean-Michel Cousineau, who is an economist at the University of Montreal who was able to show that, of course, poverty and inequality are not the same thing, but the more unequal your society becomes, the more poverty you have.

Human Resources committee  With respect to your final point, the idea of creating framework legislation, a policy or an action plan is important, as is the setting of goals. It also relates to the idea that generally, when we create public policy we need to be sensitive to its effect on various segments of the population.

Human Resources committee  The answer is yes. The strategy should first stem from federal areas of jurisdiction. The federal government should review all measures under its jurisdiction which have a significant effect. We raised employment insurance, but the other central issue is taxation, or the redistribution of income within Canada.