Afghanistan committee  No, I wouldn't. As I mentioned, as part of this whole-of-government team, neither I personally nor my soldiers were engaged in that aspect of capacity building. But we mixed with the NDS freely in the field, out in the box, as it were.

Afghanistan committee  I don't know that I can help you there, other than to say that I relied on the reports of other government departments to form my judgment of what state that transfer facility--and frankly Sarposa, since it was in my patch--was in to form my opinion on whether or not folks were being subjected to torture inside there.

Afghanistan committee  The army's not the only source the government has, but I hate to be the devil's advocate. Now we're splitting hairs. As I mentioned, it's the whole-of-government team. They may have... I don't know, maybe somebody from the other element of the whole-of-government team operating their stove pipe sent something up.

Afghanistan committee  Right. During my time, none of that sort of information would have been shared with me.

Afghanistan committee  Regarding the detainee transfer facility, to be frank, I'm not certain how much detail I can give you on it other than to say it is established by military policemen in accordance with international norms, or certainly Canadian norms, and the detainees are not left unsupervised so that they can harm themselves.

Afghanistan committee  Yes, insofar as that the place where they picked the taxi up wasn't a busy bazaar where somebody could intercept them.

Afghanistan committee  That's fair. I don't know that I would characterize them as an intelligence agency, but more as a federal bureau of investigation. I don't think we have a Canadian equivalent--well, I'm pretty sure we don't. But yes, you're right. As you know, Mr. Rae, there's a whole number of ways we collect intelligence, but if you want human intelligence, which is actually the most valuable in an insurgency, you have to get it from people like the NDS.

Afghanistan committee  Right.

Afghanistan committee  I can't comment on that. I can tell you that there are NDS agents in every district at that level, and they're listening to the jungle drums, as it were, and they're picking up all that stuff, and they're just casually questioning people as any sort of intelligence operative would.

Afghanistan committee  Yes.

Afghanistan committee  Certainly. We can use the same analogy of the county jail. If you go to the county jail, you're going to be interviewed at some point. That's why the police, in one of the capacity-building measures that I can recall, gave instruction to the NDS on techniques for police interviewing, so they could use it in their facility in Kandahar.

Afghanistan committee  I agree absolutely.

Afghanistan committee  Never.

Afghanistan committee  --and that they would do things such as react to tribal pressures. Well, my answer to that is, welcome to Afghanistan. It's a bloody complex place and it's full of tribes, and if you don't understand those links, you ain't ever going to make them--

Afghanistan committee  I met Minister Saleh, who is the minister responsible for the NDS, and when he came to see me--and this was at Masum Gar, out on a forward operating base--and we discussed how to sort out Bazar-e Panjwai and Panjwai, I didn't get the impression that I was talking to a weak minister who didn't have a grip on his ministry.