Justice committee  In a word, no. There are many cases where legal professionals, notaries in Quebec as well as notaries in B.C., real estate professionals across the country, are duped by fraudsters; and it's not the fault of the notary and it's not the fault of the lawyer. So they are not involved or complicit in the action; they've actually been duped by a fraudster as well, who claims to be the owner of a property but is actually not the lawful owner and has a mortgage conveyed, and then it's registered.

Justice committee  There are places across Canada, both in B.C. and in Quebec, where a legal professional has to witness the document and sign and certify—it's not uncommon just to Quebec—and they have been duped. I'm sorry, but they have. They do end up putting fraudulent instruments on the land title office or on the registry system, and it has happened in every province, unfortunately.

Justice committee  Absolutely. We would just like to ensure that if there is real estate or title fraud, which you can think of as the jackpot of identity theft, there are provisions that capture the unique cases and the amount of devastation that creates. I think we have sections of the code that deal with that specifically, and as the member previously indicated, If it's broke, let's fix it.

Justice committee  There have been many estimates. Generally what you see is that a lot of financial institutions just pay it out. There isn't one steadfast number out there. In Alberta, the real estate fraud committee reported that there were 2,750 incidents of real estate fraud for one year, in 2008.

Justice committee  Yes.

Justice committee  There are two types.

Justice committee  Yes, there would obviously be for fraudulent use of a power of attorney, but abuse of a power of attorney—thank you for mentioning that—I don't believe is covered.

Justice committee  Would you like me to read the letter?

Justice committee  We wrote a letter as an association and made the same recommendations. The minister responded by indicating that the sections of the code were rarely used.

Justice committee  No, the minister wrote: You specifically cite sections 386 and 387 of the Code, which pertain directly to certain aspects of fraudulent real estate transactions. It's my understanding that these offences are not charged often; rather, the general fraud offence under section 380 of the Code would be the offence most frequently charged for the crimes you are concerned about.

Justice committee  In Quebec there has been some fraudulent activity. I believe there was a case involving a journalist, a quite high-profile case. The most famous real estate fraud case in Quebec involved former La Presse journalist, François Trépanier, where fraudsters made away with $243,000 and forced Mr.

Justice committee  I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

Justice committee  Yes, except in the case where they've abused a power of attorney. They can actually take a power of attorney and go forward and say they have the authority to convey or to mortgage a property. So the issue is whether or not they've applied the power of attorney according to what they were entitled to do.

Justice committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to appear before this committee. Our association is the Title Insurance Industry Association of Canada. We are federally regulated title insurance companies. The objects and purposes of our association are to promote the common interests and concerns of the title insurance industry in Canada, to provide information and education to its members and the public, to advocate for the betterment of and on behalf of the title insurance industry, and to maintain professional standards and ethics in the title insurance industry in Canada.