Veterans Affairs committee  No. But again, our experience is different. Because of duty to accommodate and the way our health benefits run, when a member is injured, we do everything we can to make sure they can stay within the organization and to retain them for as long as possible. Again, because the average age of release of most our members now is about 54, I'm not saying that they won't work afterwards, but the analysis in 2006 was that this wasn't a big ticket item for us.

Veterans Affairs committee  Right, and I think that in that number, that 8,000, it's important to point out that not all of those members are retired. A large percentage of them are, but they're retired from the forces so they're not necessarily looking for new employment anyway. They might be, but not necessarily.

Veterans Affairs committee  Our rates of access are very low right now, not because the need isn't there, but mostly out of a lack of communication from me outward. That's something that was identified in other questions during the last Senate committee we attended. It's just a matter of being able to communicate better to our membership--as well as our released members--that these programs are available to them.

Veterans Affairs committee  No, we don't keep the statistics. Right now, our human resources computer system doesn't do that for us. It's something we're asking for. We do know anecdotally that our rates are quite low. One is too many. We understand that. As far as veterans are concerned, we don't keep those types of statistics.

Veterans Affairs committee  Sure. I think the framing around that has to be correct. The RCMP experience is much different, so it's not a matter of good or bad, and it's not a matter of saying that what the new veterans charter offered wasn't good enough or wasn't suitable for certain segments of the Canadian workforce or the CF.

Veterans Affairs committee  Maybe I should qualify that, considering that you're going to go on. It's a pilot, but it's voluntary inasmuch as we have told people what we're going to be talking about and that if they're not interested in it right now, it's probably best that they self-select out and let those who want to come in, because there are a lot who do.

Veterans Affairs committee  Yes.

Veterans Affairs committee  Thank you very much for clarifying that. One of the things we have done, as the chief has talked about, is to make sure that people going into high-stress areas are assessed prior to going in, during the time they're there, and upon leaving. Does that prevent...? I think what it does is point out to us that there might be issues, so we don't put people at a higher risk of having an operational stress injury into those positions to begin with.

Veterans Affairs committee  Yes.

Veterans Affairs committee  Yes.

Veterans Affairs committee  I would preface this by saying that I'm not 100% sure that ambulance attendants, emergency medical personnel, and doctors.... They may arrive at the same symptoms of compassion fatigue or post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms. The way we get there is different, and therefore, I would think, the way you would prevent it is different as well.

Veterans Affairs committee  I hope I'm going to be able to answer your question. There was a lot of information in your buildup to that. Are you talking specifically about physical injury or post-traumatic stress disorder?

Veterans Affairs committee  Just very quickly, one of the things we've done in renewing our health benefits table of what members are allowed is that we've made a change, as of January 1, to allow the first six visits to a psychologist or a family counsellor for...and the spouse can go without the member. That's a bit of a change.

Veterans Affairs committee  Sure. You're absolutely right when you talk about people coming back from Afghanistan or doing policing work for 20 years. You're not the same person you were when you went in, but I dare say you're probably not the same after 20 years of any profession. The issues around what police officers do on a daily basis and the feelings we might have are very normal feelings and emotions in regard to very abnormal situations.

Veterans Affairs committee  That's correct.