Finance committee  There could be no collusion in the marketplace. Collusion in the marketplace would be illegal under the Competition Act. The issue of the setting of prices for products and services is not an issue that we can discuss collectively around the trade association table. The Competition Act makes it abundantly clear that you cannot sit down with other members and collude or agree on the setting of prices for the products and services you're providing.

Finance committee  Why does the price of a standard loaf of bread collect around a very close median figure? Why is the price of a subcompact car provided by any of the three North American manufacturers very similar? There are at least 15 different elements that go into the cost structure of a sophisticated system like an ABM--

Finance committee  Yes, you do. The lowest-cost providers in terms of accessing your non-bank ABMs are in fact the banks at $1.50. The Mouvement Desjardins has just increased its rate by thirty-three and a third per cent to $2, and the argument that the Mouvement Desjardins made in doing that was that they have the most extensive network of ABMs in the province of Quebec.

Finance committee  There are several points I'd like to respond to. The first one is that we have 15,951 ABMs. I think that's the correct number owned by banks. There has been an explosive growth in non-bank ABMs. The reason there has been explosive growth in non-bank ABMs relates directly to a decision by the Competition Tribunal in 1996 to open up the system.

Finance committee  I have no--

Finance committee  They're considering it on a continuous basis. I don't think there's a product or a service that's offered by the individual banks that's not under constant and continuous review as to whether the quality can be improved, whether or not it can be at a better price, and in particular whether or not you can steal some customers away from the other banks.

Finance committee  It all depends on your own profile. It depends on how frequently you use ATMs. It depends on how frequently you use your debit card. It depends on how frequently you go to the branch. There are literally hundreds of different packages available to you as a customer, so you have to really know your own profile, look across the banking system, see what the options are--because there are a huge number of options out there--and decide what package makes the most sense for you.

Finance committee  I will respond in writing to some of the other points.

Finance committee  Thank you very much for the question. I will give a reasonably brief answer. But Professor Johnson has raised quite a few points that I will want to reply to the committee in detail on in writing, because I simply won't have time today to refute the positions he has taken on a number of things.

Finance committee  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I have with me Karen Michell, who is the vice-president of banking operations and who knows and understands the ABM system well. You're quite correct, Mr. Chairman. After 39 plus years, this will be my final appearance in front of the finance committee.