Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  If you don't want to do something, you can always find all sorts of technical reasons for not doing it. The fact is that they are seeking refuge, and they are seeking refuge from their own government. I don't know of any better definition of a refugee than that.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The United States still has a military presence in Iraq and could be instrumental in putting such a force in place, whether by direct participation or through the use of its support facilities. My own belief—and this is easy for me to say, because I'm not directly involved in making the decisions—is that even if a relatively small force of UN blue helmets were put in place, the Iraqi government would feel reluctant to undertake any kind of forcible action.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think we would.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Sir, you've just made my case.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  That is a fair assessment.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I don't have a military background. I am repeating what I've heard from people who do have military training, including the U.S. colonel who was charge of the area before. He estimated a force of 1,000 to 1,500.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I guess that's right, but you'd have to really talk to him about that.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The United Nations has access pretty much at the will of the Iraqi government. But there has been some UN access, simply because the Iraqi government will not risk direct confrontation with the entire international community. They have allowed some people from UNHCR to go in, but they do it only on a very limited basis and under certain conditions.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The answer to the question of how you put a force in place is yes to all of your alternatives. I think that all should be considered, and all should be acted on. Insofar as getting them delisted, I would hope, as you said, that the Canadian government would make its own evaluation and, as the U.K. did and the EU did, determine that the designation is not warranted—and it wouldn't hurt to whisper in the ear of my own government that it is the case.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  It is a question, candidly, of there being national and international public pressure, because there is no forum, as you know, in which a government can be forced to do something it doesn't want to do. But it can respond to the pressure, both moral and political, of other governments.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Candidly, I'm at a loss, as well, which is why other and I are doing everything we can to talk to whoever will listen. There are some looming disasters that can't be prevented—earthquakes, floods, and the like—but there are some disasters that can be prevented, and this is one of them.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think it's due to a clear and present danger from Iran. I think the history they had with Saddam Hussein is an excuse, an argument. They may very well have cooperated with Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. On the other hand, if your country was taken over by the kind of people who were running Iran, you might very well cooperate with pretty much whoever was trying to undo them.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The principal country that has them listed as terrorists is the United States. There may be one or two others who do it because the United States does it. Once that barrier were cleared, then it would be a great deal easier for them to move.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  There was a letter written by a U.S. general guaranteeing that they would be treated as protected persons under the Geneva Conventions. They were each given identification cards issued by the United States. What has become of the guarantee is that we have turned over control of security in that area to Iraq.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The end of the year is an entirely arbitrary date. I think they believe that if the date were extended, then it would be extended infinitely. They are being pressured by the Iranians to get those people out of there. So they have decided that's the date. They've drawn the proverbial line in the sand and that has become the date.