Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Yes, the difference between North Korea and South Korea is dramatic.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  South Korea has a population twice the size of North Korea's—it's almost 50 million, as opposed to 24 million in the north—but the difference in the gross domestic product between North Korea and South Korea is also dramatic: South Korea's GDP is 20 times the size of North Korea's.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  As I mentioned, there are two special rapporteurs who have reported on North Korea under the United Nations procedures. One of them was an Indonesian law professor, Vitit Muntarbhorn. He served for the first four or five years there was a special rapporteur. He was succeeded a couple of years ago by Marzuki Darusman, who is a former Indonesian government official who was, I think, the justice minister and was also involved in the human rights commission there.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  —but they've made some progress, and I'm hopeful that if we continue to press the North Koreans we'll make progress there as well.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  As with a lot of UN mechanisms, it's cumulative. We need to continue to press the North Koreans to deal with their human rights obligations. We're now on the second of the special rapporteurs on North Korean human rights, and a number of reports have been issued over the years. Those reports provide useful details, information, and documentation on the problems in North Korea.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  We have pressed the North Koreans and made it clear to them that if they want to have a normal diplomatic relationship with the United States, it will require a recognition of human rights. I think we've tried to make that point to the North Koreans on the occasions when we've been able to talk with them about these issues.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Probably the difference between the North Korean economy and the Iranian economy is North Korea is a much smaller, much less sophisticated economy. The result is that the effects, I think, are less felt because there are not large amounts of foreign purchases of North Korean goods or resources.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The other thing that's interesting is that in Iran people can call out. When our radio broadcasts have gone into Iran, people inside Iran have called out and are rebroadcast. That never happens in North Korea.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Yes.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The situation of the refugees is quite difficult. It is very difficult to get out of North Korea. The border with South Korea is heavily guarded and mined. The result is that the only way out is through China. The Chinese have generally tended to return people who have been captured after they have escaped from North Korea and crossed the border into China.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  This is a system that is set up to have one man in charge. There's no indication that the change in leadership has changed anything in terms of the nature of the dictatorship there. Very clearly the new leader is from a different generation. One of the things I found interesting is that we found out he has a wife, who appeared with him in public on a number of occasions.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. I spent many years with the United States Congress, and I appreciate the legislative branch. Let me make a few comments about North Korea and the North Korean human rights situation. I'll try to save most of the time for questions, because I'm sure you have a number of issues you would like to raise.