Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  One of the problems with Burma—and this is a problem with a few other countries in the world, as well—is that it's not monolithic. No government is monolithic, but Burma has a particularly problematic situation. The NLD won the election and controls the presidency and most of the ministries, but the Ministry of Home Affairs ministry is appointed by the military.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  There's no evidence of that now. However, there is a concern about one thing, which is that for some of the more radical “Buddhist” groups—I put Buddhist in quotes as a descriptor—or some of the more radical nationalist non-governmental groups that you may have heard of, from the Ma Ba Tha, which is a Buddhist cultural group, to the 969 Movement, which is more of a politicized anti-Muslim group, there are alleged linkages between the military leaders and those groups.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  [Inaudible--Editor]

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  A very visceral xenophobia exists in Burma exists today. I don't think that many people, before the reforms began several years ago, really appreciated how politically potent it would become. It doesn't just apply to the Rohingya. There are other Muslims in the country. When we hear about anti-Muslim sentiment in Burma, I do not mean to suggest that it's solely limited to Arakan State in the west.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you to the committee for inviting me here to talk about the devastating humanitarian situation of the Rohingya in Burma. I want to begin my remarks today by giving a factual background and then get to some of the recommendations we have about how to address the situation.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Thank you.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  There are a few things you could say about the alleged Christianization that is waved out as a red flag by some of the Sunni militant groups. One does need to wonder why the Christian faith is growing in Indonesia. It is. It has gone from 8% to roughly 10%. I don't know exactly what the latest numbers are, but there has been a growth of approximately 2%.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  You can say a lot of things. Part of it is proselytization by these groups, but either way, it doesn't matter; people are entitled to proselytize. It's free speech, but it's used as a red flag by groups saying, “Oh, you know, if things keep going, Sunni Islam is going to be defeated.”

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The Moluccas and Papua both.... They don't define themselves as Christian. It's a separatist movement, but I don't think it's religiously defined.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Yes, for Papuans, the Christian aspect of it is not the first thing on the lips of the....

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  No. There are a lot of problems in the Moluccas, and there have been some isolated incidents, but if you look at the raw numbers of attacks, they tend to be more in Java and Sumatra.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  It very much is a wider problem. Afghanistan has problems with Shia groups facing discrimination in certain local areas. It's much more homogenous, though. Pakistan, which is almost entirely Sunni, minority Shia, has huge problems. Iran is terrible with respect to the small number of Sunnis it has.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  The motives for some of these extremist groups sometimes escape us. I gather that, as it's been for centuries, sometimes it's easier to campaign on hate than on ideas of how to bring your country forward. Certainly it's easy to just campaign on religious purity, making Indonesia religiously pure again, and things like that.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Well, Papua is a whole separate ball of wax, because there it's predominantly a Christian population. But their problem is that many of them seek to be independent of Indonesia altogether, and they face massive ethnic discrimination as Papuans. It's important to recognize that there are a lot of ethnic issues in Indonesia, but the problems we're talking about with these radical extremist groups attacking minorities are almost entirely based on religion.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  It's a minority. That much is clear. You just walk around Java and you can see that it is not a particularly conservative place. It's not like walking around Quetta, Pakistan, or Kandahar, Afghanistan. It's certainly the case that extremist views, Salifist views, radical or extremist Sunni views, are not the majority opinion of most Sunnis in Indonesia.