Information & Ethics committee  Unfortunately, I didn't bring the guide with me and I didn't address myself to looking specifically at that issue. There are many things in the guide that are accepted practice, again by governments of various political persuasions, that have risen to the level of accepted practice or, let's say, constitutional convention that could be put into legislation without getting into a debate as to whether they are accepted or not.

Information & Ethics committee  I don't know if it would necessarily solve the problem.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, I think the legislation should provide clear notice to public office holders, and especially to ministers and ministers of state, as to what sorts of conduct are considered to constitute conflicts of interest. So right now, what you see, and what you've seen in some of the rulings from the commissioner, is her reference to some conduct that is set out as prohibited under the guidelines.

Information & Ethics committee  Without pointing to any specific provision that comes to mind, I would say that—on the theme of giving fair notice to public office holders, many of whom are government and council appointees, many of whom may never have held public office before and may not be familiar with the sorts of guidelines that exist for ministers or ministers of state—to the extent that legislation is able to set out prohibited activities, I think it's something that would assist public office holders.

Information & Ethics committee  I know that you heard from the Integrity Commissioner in Ontario, as well as the commissioner from British Columbia, about the different experiences and different levels of detail in those two acts. I certainly know from the research I did on the United States that there is an incredible level of detail, and I would say very severe sanctions as well, in the United States.

Information & Ethics committee  The document, Accountable Government, is a very long document and contains many provisions. The two provisions I focused on were the ones dealing with non-interference of ministers and ministers of state in judicial matters and in quasi-judicial matters. There is quite an extensive explanation in the guide relating to quasi-judicial officials, quasi-judicial proceedings, which tend to fall under the authority of another minister.

Information & Ethics committee  I think it is a fundamental principle. I think the Prime Minister and various prime ministers have identified it in the guidelines Accountable Government as a fundamental principle for ministers and ministers of state. I think it is preferable to set out those principles or those provisions in law rather than to leave them in guidelines.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes.

Information & Ethics committee  I think it would be a preferable system than the currently available administrative monetary penalties. As I set out in my testimony, I'm not supportive of the current administrative monetary penalties. I think that a monetary penalty of $500 is simply not at a high enough level to be commensurate with the importance of the issues in the act, and to me that leads one to go in one of two different directions.

Information & Ethics committee  I would agree with what I think is the premise of your question, which is that it is a challenge, certainly for the commissioner, to administer different pieces of legislation in terms of the Conflict of Interest Act that you're reviewing, as well as the members' code. Then there is a further problem with a different person administering the Lobbying Act and lobbyist registration.

Information & Ethics committee  Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to address you today. I apologize for not being able to attend the previously scheduled appointment with the committee. Unfortunately, I was sick and would prefer not to go into further details of that on the record in Hansard.