Public Accounts committee  Let me not address the last point. On the first point, again, as I said to Madam Sinclair-Desgagné, the objective was to provide reconnaissance and to recognize former prime minister Trudeau, le père. If you're going to be the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and if why you're doing it is to recognize his contribution, I think it has to have his name on it.

Public Accounts committee  There were all kinds of ideas. It was a very long time ago. I only remember a couple. My objective as secretary to cabinet and Clerk of the Privy Council was to not allow them to dream up ideas at the table at the moment, but rather to have what I characterized as a structured and disciplined discussion and an assessment of the alternatives.

Public Accounts committee  I just mean the decision-making process.

Public Accounts committee  I would. I find it passing strange. If I had a million dollars to spend on influence, giving $800,000 to the Université de Montréal and $200,000 or $140,000 or whatever it is to the Trudeau Foundation would be so indirect to make it ineffective. There are, as we know—

Public Accounts committee  Okay. There you go.

Public Accounts committee  I do not think there was a request from the family. It was a government decision.

Public Accounts committee  It was Mr. Roy Heenan, the first chair of the board of directors, who was involved in the process. I imagine he created that kind of governance.

Public Accounts committee  I appointed Roy Heenan, the founding lawyer for Heenan Blaikie. He was the first chair of the foundation's board of directors.

Public Accounts committee  I knew Mr. Heenan at the time, but I do not know whether he made any requests to the government.

Public Accounts committee  No. It was Prime Minister Chrétien who started the process of paying tribute to Mr. Trudeau.

Public Accounts committee  I have no knowledge of what they did. I have to say that when I was the CEO of the Institute for Research on Public Policy or the chair of the board of directors of Canadian Blood Services, we had obligations under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act, and we met those obligations.

Public Accounts committee  If that is true, I am surprised.

Public Accounts committee  That's a tough one. Again, I haven't been involved in the foundation since 2018. Given the controversy that is going on now.... I think the foundation is a worthwhile organization. It's doing very good work. I hope it gets over this controversy in a way that allows it to restore the membership of its board and the mentors and the next round of scholars.

Public Accounts committee  Very much so.

Public Accounts committee  When it was created, Mr. Rock, as the responsible minister, characterized it as analogous to the Canadian Rhodes scholarship. I don't think it has gotten to that level yet, but on the other hand, it is a big whack of money. It allows the Ph.D. students to do research that they wouldn't otherwise be funded for.