Procedure and House Affairs committee  It will not help.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I've made my point on these things and I would not necessarily adopt the way in which you have stated the issue, but I think that's essentially what I have said, not exactly what you said.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  No.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  No.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I would go back, Mr. Chair, to some of the points I made in my opening remarks. One is that we have in Canada at least four provinces that have in place the system that we have been proposing, and I'm referring in particular to Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, and Alberta. I would also point out that the Australian Electoral Commission has that power as does the U.S. federal elections commission.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I don't, and I don't for a number of reasons, but the main one would be that if this issue of the independence of the commissioner is a real concern, it could be addressed by way of amendments to the Canada Elections Act.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Mr. Chair, I don't think I would phrase it in the way it has been stated. What I would say is that the current scheme as it exists should be and must be improved so that we have more tools in our box, and what I find is that in Bill C-23, in spite of the fact that the CEO and I have called for this additional power, I have to of course note that the additional power is not being given to us.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Yes, I have said that.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  Mr. Chair, what I would say is that I think the words that appear in my opening remarks have been carefully chosen. What I would say is that some investigations would abort because of our inability to get at the facts.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  That's correct. What we are saying is that what we have put forward is a recommendation that we have a scheme that's very similar to what is in the Competition Act, so that, as the member just said, we would apply to a judge, and a judge would sit between us and the citizen and would decide whether or not, on the circumstances of the case, to give us the order that we were seeking.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  That's the history of the provision, and if I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to add something here. In order to ensure fair competition, the Parliament of Canada decided to give the commissioner of competition that power, and I think one way of looking at this would be to say that if we want to have fair elections, as opposed to fair competition, why would we not give or why would Parliament not give to the commissioner the same kind of power that the other commissioners have to ensure fair competition?

Procedure and House Affairs committee  There will certainly be inefficiencies if our office is transferred to the office of the DPP in terms of what I referred to before, in acquiring the information and communicating the information back and forth between the two organizations, and, if the tool box is not made more complete by way of giving us the ability to apply for an order to compel, then yes, investigations will continue in some cases to be long or extremely long.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  This power would greatly help. As I said, we've had a number of instances in which individuals who, in our view, have had information relevant to our investigations have refused to talk. I do think that it is essential. If we are to conduct investigations diligently, know results soon enough, and get to the bottom of things, we simply need this power.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I currently have the statutory power, which, by the way, is maintained in this bill, and I welcome that. If the bill is passed as is, I will continue to have access to the CRF.

Procedure and House Affairs committee  I think there is some refinement, perhaps, to the way in which the government expense system works that calls for a deputy head, the accounting officer of a department, or, in the case of Elections Canada, the CEO, to have final sign-off. But certainly within the framework as it exists now, when I have had to have recourse to funds from the consolidated revenue fund, it has always gone through without any problems.