Government Operations committee  In 2014.

Government Operations committee  It's an interesting evolution as Canada is learning from early budget estimates that may have to be adjusted over time what the best way is to conduct this kind of work, as Mr. Finn said, for long complex projects. The view is becoming that it's better when you have a robust dataset.

Government Operations committee  That's right.

Government Operations committee  It was signed in 2014. I should mention that I was in a different job at that time.

Government Operations committee  These are all things that I have learned and my colleagues that are there put it in place at the time because, for the reasons Mr. Finn stated, the nature of the build in Vancouver was complex, small runs of different kinds of ships for two government departments over time. The recommendation at the time was to pull standard processes in all of those builds, develop them at the outset, and make sure that they reappeared in all of those builds, so that things wouldn't be reinvented, so there wouldn't be variances.

Government Operations committee  We are present in the yard. We are integrated with them, overseeing the build program, and working with suppliers. There is robust governance. I can assure you, the three of us meet very regularly with the shipyards. We look at the program of work, the progress. We talk about risk areas, and we are continually planning years into the future because that's how shipbuilding programs have to be run.

Government Operations committee  That's an excellent question. Thank you very much. It's interesting. We hired a gentleman to give the government advice. His name is Mr. Steve Brunton. He is from the U.K. He asked, “Why does Canada do this to itself?” He said, “You're putting out budget estimates before you have any data on what it will actually cost, before you have some early indication of the risks, what will materialize, and efficiencies you might achieve, and you might also be affecting your negotiating position.”

Government Operations committee  Mr. Chair, if I may, I'll put it in really plain language, because it is a kind of fundamental shipbuilding principle. Normally in shipbuilding you'd build a long run of many of the same kind of ship, and the client department would pay at the beginning. It would say, “All right, do the engineering that we want you to do on the first ship and then do it again for all the others and achieve your shipbuilding efficiencies.”

Government Operations committee  Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair. As I said at the outset, it had been 30 years since Canada had built ships, so the yards had to upgrade their infrastructure at their own cost, and government, both PSPC and client departments, had to grow and build internal expertise. We have a really impressive workforce that specializes in complex procurement.

Government Operations committee  I will continue, if I may. The process was competitive, and the then auditor general said that it was fair, transparent and open.

Government Operations committee  I really like debates. In a former life, I was a litigator. It's not a problem. I'm used to it.

Government Operations committee  It's important to note that two shipyards were selected to build large vessels. However, the building of small vessels remains competitive, and....

Government Operations committee  Allow me to finish. Vessel maintenance is also competitive, and that means....

Government Operations committee  Thank you. I will say once again that that does not in any way constitute an investment in shipyard infrastructure. As I have said, the fact that these elements are competitive helps expand the marine industry in Canada. We currently have a commitment with the industry to maintain offshore and Arctic patrol ships, the first of which is being built at the shipyard, while the joint support ships are slated for construction soon in Vancouver.

Government Operations committee  Thank you.