Public Accounts committee  Whenever you make job cuts, there are a few ways of doing it. The most popular one is through attrition. It's perceived, for lack of a better word, as the easiest one. However, when you let people go through attrition, where does the work go? I'll use a simple example. Let's say there's a two-person unit and one person retires.

Public Accounts committee  There are a few things. First, we need accountability. The Financial Administration Act was not followed. Someone has to be accountable for that. Someone looked the other way. Something happened. I don't know why and I don't know who, but something wasn't done properly. Second, if we're protecting whistle-blowers, we need to make sure, as I was saying before, that when someone sees something that's not right, they're more likely to speak up.

Public Accounts committee  Specifically with regard to ArriveCAN, there needs to be accountability. We need to reinforce the message that the rules in place exist for a reason. Our members can help you. Just let us do our job.

Public Accounts committee  Our members don't represent CFOs, no. However, the Auditor General often looks after the fact, only at the past. Our members, if they are positioned well in the front end, can prevent blunders from happening in the first place.

Public Accounts committee  No, there was definitely not good financial oversight.

Public Accounts committee  I've never seen something of this nature. For my members, it's very frustrating, because if any one of them had been consulted, you could have just let us do our job. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. This is basic bookkeeping. It is easy to prevent these things.

Public Accounts committee  It was for approximately 10 years.

Public Accounts committee  I have seen a few occasions—and I think some of our members have been there as well—that had suspicions. I say “suspicions” because, again, we can only know what we see. If we don't see all of the information, it's difficult for us to make an accurate assessment of the situation.

Public Accounts committee  Not in my personal experience, no.

Public Accounts committee  Some members alluded to it but, again, they couldn't prove it.

Public Accounts committee  I can't speak to the government's part, but I can tell you that generally speaking, when you are dealing with financial officers and auditors, it can be perceived as lagging in time. If you want something done quickly, maybe you don't want accountants and auditors in there. However, if you want something done well and to bring value to Canadians, you want financial officers in there.

Public Accounts committee  We represent financial professionals. Again, they're accountants, comptrollers, auditors and members who are there to ensure financial integrity and to ensure that the Financial Administration Act is being respected. However, if our members are not allowed to do their job.... For example, if someone were to come to me and say, “Hey, Dany, your member didn't do proper bookkeeping”, I'd say they were never privy to the information and were never consulted.

Public Accounts committee  In terms of governance, it's good practice to review expenses. You have to consider whether the expenses incurred are a good investment. When you cut things by 2%, 5% or 10%, without necessarily reviewing each case, you may make cuts that shouldn't be made. In general, every dollar invested in financial auditing provides a return on investment.

Public Accounts committee  It's case by case. In this particular case with ArriveCAN, I can only tell you what I've heard from two members. I can't reveal their identities, but they were basically told, “We don't have time for governance.” Don't get me wrong. There's a time and place to tolerate a bit more risk, but you have to realize what kind of risk you're taking and what your risk mitigation strategies are.

Public Accounts committee  Yes. Look, there's a time and place for using consultants. There's nothing inherently wrong when it's done for the right reasons, but when it becomes the de facto practice, it is an issue.