Public Safety committee  Again, our correctional officers, our members, are dealing with these types of inmates across the country 24-7 every single day of the year. I know that we want to sensationalize this particular inmate, but this is the reality inside our medium-security institutions. We have many offenders who are just like that.

Public Safety committee  Are you asking about program officers or correctional officers?

Public Safety committee  I wouldn't be able to speak about program officers. I just speak about my membership. When it comes to correctional officers, the profile between maximum-security and medium-security.... When it comes to that employment equity profile, it is very close in most of our institutions across the country.

Public Safety committee  When it comes to the level of violence from Mr. Paul Bernardo, I will reiterate your comments that they are unspeakable. The damage he's done to Canadian society is unspeakable. As to whether he belongs in a medium-security institution, I think we need to characterize that question a little more broadly.

Public Safety committee  I'm not going to be able to comment on the question, to be honest. I was not part of his case management team and I never have been. I don't know the entire case. I think the crux of the question is this: Does he sound like somebody who belongs in a medium-security institution?

Public Safety committee  What I could say is that when it comes to rehabilitative programming, it's much easier to conduct it inside a medium-security institution or a minimum-security institution. There is a strict level of control when it comes to inmate movement inside a maximum-security facility, and having that ability is certainly a bit easier for a medium-security institution.

Public Safety committee  I would.

Public Safety committee  Of course, with the elimination of segregation units, which we would have had in our medium-security facilities across the country, and with the SIU model that has been put in place, most of the SIUs are in maximum-security institutions. That is going to increase the number of transfers between medium and maximum, ultimately just because you're moving from a medium-security to a maximum-security because of the SIU placement, and then potentially back again from the SIU placement.

Public Safety committee  Yes, I think that's exactly right. Inmates have the ability to file what's called a habeas corpus suit, saying that they're not being housed in the appropriate level according to their custody rating scale, for example. Of course, the least restrictive is something that Correctional Services is always trying to strive towards, so that might mean movement between institutions.

Public Safety committee  I'm quite certain that before Bill C-83, there was something in the CCRA that talked about least restrictive. I remember making the argument many times, even as a local president, that inmates who would normally be placed in segregation at the time, before Bill C-83, were being placed in different ranges, with different population management strategies occurring for those offenders.

Public Safety committee  I can't really speak to the decision that was made, particularly for the case management team at the time. To be quite honest, as the national president of the union I'm not involved that heavily in the case management of every individual offender across the country. I wouldn't say it's abnormal for that type of thing to happen, but I wouldn't say it was normal, that it's an everyday occurrence, either.

Public Safety committee  I think it would be a little premature to give an estimate, but at a minimum-security institution, for example, there would be five to a dozen inmates who might be overridden from medium security. Likewise, from maximum into medium, we have inmates who are placed in our medium-security facilities who, according to the custody rating scale, would come out as a maximum-security offender.

Public Safety committee  It seems like a very high number. Now, I'm not exactly sure if this would have been relevant during COVID, because we didn't have a lot of transfers happening, if you recall, during the pandemic. I assume that this is after the pandemic.

Public Safety committee  Once again, my colleagues might be in a better position to answer that question. It's my understanding that there are different authorities when it comes to different kinds of transfers. If it's a transfer within a region from a medium-security institution to a minimum-security institution, for example, it's the warden's delegated authority to make the decision on that.

Public Safety committee  I wouldn't say it's not considered, but I don't think it plays a leading role in the transfer of an inmate. Again, it is the custody rating scale that determines the assessment for a decision to transfer to a lower-security institution. With regard to the comment that the union didn't know, as the national president of the organization, I didn't know either, until it hit the media.