Government Operations committee  Mr. Johns, my answer's going to touch on your question, because it overlaps with what your colleague from Quebec mentioned earlier, about one core compartment of the NSS being small ship manufacturing, that is, boats under 1,000 tonnes. The only information I can ever find on this is the occasional annual report and press releases.

Government Operations committee  Well, I should say that what goes on outside the naval realm is not really my area of expertise, but as a general rule, I think there's always room for interdepartmental coordination to avoid duplication and ensure that we're actually leveraging the expenditure of dollars, for sure.

Government Operations committee  I am—

Government Operations committee  I completely agree, sir, on this idea of trade-offs. I think missing for some time in this discussion is what you gain by having the capacity to develop, to not just build the ships but, crucially, to be able to maintain and sustain them over decades. That is a domestic sovereignty capability you need.

Government Operations committee  I echo my colleague's comments. They're spot-on. An additional challenge is simply that we are not the only country among our allies going through a massive rebuilding program for ships, submarines and other key naval capabilities. Most of our clear allies are the Brits, the Aussies, the Dutch and the Germans now.

Government Operations committee  I'm not sure what the government's position is on it, because there's been no formal declaration that somehow this idea is dead in the water. It is, to your point, notably missing from the mandate letters. COVID, I think, goes some way to explaining that. My understanding also, from talking to people in the system, is that bureaucratic resistance is first and paramount as well.

Government Operations committee  Thank you, Chair. I'm happy to speak again. I'll just repeat the key parts of my opening statement. Hopefully, those can serve as the basis for further discussion. It's worth bearing in mind that the national shipbuilding strategy has no parallel within the history of Canadian defence procurement that has shared its ambition.

Government Operations committee  Sure. Thank you, sir. The JSS are not providing just refuelling capabilities, which give the Royal Canadian Navy the ability to operate on longer distances for a longer period of time and therefore also help to provide a needed allied capability. The ships are also going beyond their predecessor's ability, to essentially provide a medical clinic on them and carry more cargo.

Government Operations committee  Well, it has to be interoperable so that it has the ability to do what's known as RAS, refuel at sea, with NATO allies. Bigger navies would splice up the capabilities that we're trying to put in the JSS into a bunch of different ships. The Brits would have a straightforward ship, like the Tidespring, that can refuel.

Government Operations committee  Are you talking about the air capabilities of the Royal Canadian Air Force, or the industry?

Government Operations committee  That's a really hard question. As one of Canada's niche areas, and I emphasize “niche”, we have moved away from making military aircraft in large numbers. Since the 1960s, we've stopped doing that. We had the Arrow in the 1950s, and then we gave up licensing in the 1960s. What our air defence industrial base is good at, from an aircraft perspective, are satellites, communications, and really the companies like CAE, for example, that do the training simulation systems.

Government Operations committee  The vast majority of aircraft that we buy for our military are made by allied manufacturers, principally American manufacturers. As my colleague Mr. Fergusson noted, NORAD interoperability, that binational command continental air defence lens, shapes what goes into designing an aircraft so that they can help fulfill the NORAD mission.

Government Operations committee  It's a great question, sir. I think it's about defining what you mean by “better”. Often, when I think about who's doing well in procurement, it's really about project by project. The one thing I'll give the Danes and Finns credit for—and the Swiss as well—is their ability to make a decision.

Government Operations committee  One issue that comes up a lot is about restructuring the machinery of government to respond to procurement. Restructuring during the middle of handling major procurement projects can be challenging. It is telling, though, that the last several times this country has had rapid buildups of military acquisitions, it has gone with a separate defence acquisition agency.

Government Operations committee  That's a tough question to answer. These types of projects always have a prime contractor, but the supply chains are very sophisticated and complicated. Whether it's a ship, submarine, jet or armoured vehicle, there is so much software and advanced technology going into it that it's literally like a multination supply chain.