Industry committee  To follow up, the electric utilities are now by far the biggest wind developers in the country. That's incontestable. Wind is increasingly becoming close to being commercially competitive. It still does require an uplift, so that I think should be sustained. But I think Mr. Cleland's point is correct, that this should not go on forever.

Industry committee  On electricity, if you talk to the industrial accounts about what their number one objective is, it's reliability. They say, before price, before anything else, make sure my supply is absolutely reliable and that I'm not going to have sudden interruptions, because that's extremely costly.

Industry committee  To add to that, at the ground level, where our companies operate in distributing gas and electricity, etc., we have very active programming with our industrial partners and our commercial accounts. All of the work that goes on in trying to drive energy efficiency through the industrial structure is through a partnership approach.

Industry committee  I would briefly offer that I think in terms of the choices we make, as Mr. Cleland alluded to, strategically it's important that if Canada is to retain a sense of energy security based on having indigenous supply, then the tar sands development has to go ahead. Our conventional basins are shrinking in terms of production, so we have on one level a challenge with respect to having our own indigenous supply of crude oil versus being dependent, like so much of the world, on the Middle East or other highly vulnerable sources.

Industry committee  With respect to electricity, Canada still has amongst the lowest prices in certainly the developed world relative to the developing world. I don't have good data on that. My impression is that prices are considerably higher in the developing world, particularly if you factor in reliability, which has a cost.

Industry committee  Very briefly, the price of electricity will continue to go up; it just won't have the volatility, driven by external factors, that you see in some other fuel choices.

Industry committee  I would offer that it comes back down to basics. If the supply-demand equation is tight, then it's fertile ground for volatility. And volatility is what drags the speculators into this game, because they can make a lot of money at it. In that world, you're right. All of us who are just trying to plan our production runs and acquire enough stock can be victims of it.

Industry committee  It's one short point. Electricity prices are not set by markets; they're set by regulators who look at the cost structure of the industry. A point on why electricity prices are going up is that there's a reinvestment curve occurring now, as we replace old equipment and build for the future.

Industry committee  I can respond. You raised the issue of the reliability of the electricity system, and 2003 was a wake-up call for a lot of people in eastern North America, certainly in Ontario. A lot has been done since then in terms of addressing the rules in North America, by working through the North American Electric Reliability Council, for instance, and setting it up as an international rules developer to maintain and operate the bulk transmission system.

Industry committee  Very quickly, on electricity, certainly the level of volatility in the prices is far less extreme than with respect to oil and gas, and that's structurally because we just have a different set of realities. As a starting point, 60% of Canadian electricity comes from hydro and another 15% or so comes from nuclear.

Natural Resources committee  I'll make a brief set of comments, first overarching and then with respect to electricity. Clearly in energy, as with our economy as a whole, our degree of interdependence with the United States market is extraordinary. We can neither deny it nor would it be in our interest to avoid it.

Natural Resources committee  On the first question, I think you misunderstood me. What I did say, I believe--I hope I said--was that we import energy in the east, that is, oil and gas. In terms of electricity, just so I'm clear on that, we import electricity as well, but not on a net basis. That is, we bring in electricity off peak and sell it back on peak in areas like Quebec, where we have storage reservoirs that allow us to play that role.

Natural Resources committee  I'll briefly try to deal with the other two elements in your question, energy efficiency and public support. In the area of energy efficiency, both gas and electric utilities have been involved in pursuing energy efficiency with their customers for decades now, so there's a long history of lessons learned.

Natural Resources committee  Thank you for your question. There are a number of questions embedded in it, so I think we will work our way through it. You mentioned Mr. Elston's comment about being in a transitions period. Murray, did you want to pick up on that?

Natural Resources committee  Thank you for those questions. I will invite my colleagues to address a number of them. The first one was framework versus a national energy strategy with set or determined values embedded in it. Our view, which runs through the presentation, is that the track record of the former national energy policy as a value-determined strategy speaks for itself.