Public Safety committee  I think it's one component of an approach; it's one component to stop the drugs from coming in. But the last CSC deputy commissioner mentioned that it simply does not stop drugs. There's no prison in the world where drugs do not enter. Given the significant amount of resources that have been spent in the last ten years, and the correctional investigator's finding that drug use has not gone down, you can't focus exclusively on drug interdiction.

Public Safety committee  We don't actually have information in terms of the cost of the different programs that exist in the world. When we've spoken to the Spanish wardens, there is the cost of the needles and syringes themselves, and in many cases where the staff deliver the program, there's marginal time spent.

Public Safety committee  For someone in prison, it's $22,000 for hepatitis C, and $29,000 a year.

Public Safety committee  We don't have a breakdown. I think in some cases it's very hard to determine when exactly they're infected and how. We don't have that data. The 2007 survey--

Public Safety committee  Yes, but there is data that indicates upon admission when people test, the rates of HIV and hepatitis C, and the problems within the prison system. Those are significantly different, and I can share those with you.

Public Safety committee  It depends. There are different models in the different countries. In the less-well-resourced systems, in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria pays for it. The minister of justice in Spain pays for the distribution of needles. In some cases, the external NGOs that already provide needle exchange programs in the community continue that practice and get extended funding to deliver in prisons.

Public Safety committee  I believe we would require a pilot to determine which method of delivery would be the most effective. But what we've heard from many prisoners is the need for confidentiality, and perhaps either someone from the health unit or external NGOs providing that would be preferable to correctional officers or staff who are otherwise not associated with the health unit.

Public Safety committee  Again, it depends on the model that should be adopted in the different prison systems. We've never actually had a pilot, as you know. So I think we would have to test which model would work the best in our system. But there are many models we can learn from, based on the number of prisons where they've existed now for some years.

Public Safety committee  Methadone is an effective method of dealing with addiction for people with opiate addictions, but I think we've heard from other witnesses that methadone treatment is not always available and not everyone wants to use it. Not everyone has an opiate addiction. Some people might be using other drugs.

Public Safety committee  I'm sorry, I don't think of the needle as a substance.

Public Safety committee  Right.

Public Safety committee  Drugs have been illegal in all the systems where the needle and syringe programs have existed. So they would remain illegal.

Public Safety committee  That's not what we're advocating for at this time, and that's not what I'm speaking about.

Public Safety committee  I read the transcript of Craig Jones, who was here before. I agree with him 100% that double bunking and the increasing prison population will only contribute to the worsening of the environment within the prison system. We've spoken to many prisoners who did not previously use drugs, but who use drugs once they enter prison because they're coping with a really harsh prison environment.

Public Safety committee  It's 200.