Justice committee  Thank you. I can barely recall it myself. But what I remember from it is that I cited to you the case of this police officer chasing a burglar, whose arm he grazed with his gun. The Court of Appeal in Ontario reduced his sentence from twelve months to six months. I know your format doesn't allow us to ask you questions....

Justice committee  All right, I will ask you the question. Would you be pleased to have that police officer locked up for five years? That's what Bill C-10 would require. While I'm at it, do you have no objection at all to the fact that Robert Latimer continues to languish in jail for a crime committed out of love and compassion for his little girl?

Justice committee  Thank you. In a way, Mr. Kramp, you're using a “big brother” argument. You're saying, “My big brother, the cops, say this.” We're pointing to the social scientists. Of course, unless we can come in here with the studies and you do likewise and we can sit and go point by point, all we're going to do is throw buckets at each other and not accomplish as much as we should.

Justice committee  There's no causal relationship.

Justice committee  The answer is theoretically yes. The problem is it's a very high threshold to cross. Despite what is often said about the activism of judges, the judges in fact have exercised considerable restraint. In many situations they have taken the position that they think the particular punishment is inappropriate, but they are reluctant to say it's unconstitutional, even in particular sets of circumstances.

Justice committee  I'm not sure I adequately understood your question, but I'm going to try. Do I understand you're asking why scientific literature does not provide more support for this kind of legislation? It's probably because it doesn't exist. That's my best guess. The studies have been done again and again and again, and while it's true there have been a handful of studies that appear to go the other way, in virtually every case there's something else that explains it.

Justice committee  As a matter of fact, what your point reminds me of is the comment that was made by the study done for the justice department when they said that juries may well be less willing to convict when the offence at issue contains a mandatory minimum. That's part of the problem: that it has such a distorting effect on the way justice is administered.

Justice committee  The name you have trouble with.

Justice committee  Thank you. I'm here on behalf of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. To my immediate left is our project director of public safety, Alexi Wood. I have three points to make. The first is that mandatory minimum sentences are capable of producing very serious injustice. One of the most effective examples is the current plight of Saskatchewan farmer Robert Latimer.