Public Safety committee  In Canada.

Public Safety committee  But unless you bring the crime rate down, which we're actually not doing in Canada—despite the police statistics—it's basically $83 billion every year.

Public Safety committee  Well, in countries like England, the United States, or Canada, there are two ways we measure crime. One is from some sort of survey: the national crime victims survey in the United States, the British crime survey in England, and a general social survey in Canada. The other is what the police record.

Public Safety committee  It is what's reported and recorded. That's correct.

Public Safety committee  I think it's a bit more complicated. That's what the federal ombudsman told you. What you have to do to get restitution ordered is make sure that the victims have clarified what they want and what's justifiable and have requested it. You see that in those states in the U.S. where it's most advanced.

Public Safety committee  I forget exactly how the Criminal Code and the Youth Criminal Justice Act are worded. Is it required? It's easy for them not to order it.

Public Safety committee  I don't have in front of me the actual wording. But we also don't know how often it is not ordered. We don't collect those sorts of statistics.

Public Safety committee  The $83 billion comes from work done by Justice Canada. It's used a lot by Minister Nicholson, and I think it's good use of data. It is limited in some ways. It's based on really two core bits of information. One is what's called, by me, the “victimization” survey, which is the general social survey that basically talks to a sample of some 25,000 adult Canadians about whether they've been the victims of eight or nine specific crimes.

Public Safety committee  You didn't hear this, but I wrote a major book on the effectiveness of the prison parole system. It's somewhat dated, but the data is used on the website of the Correctional Service of Canada, and I've certainly stayed in touch with the material on what is effective in terms of reducing recidivism.

Public Safety committee  I do crime victims week on both sides of the border, and I was invited by the bipartisan caucus of the U.S. Congress to address their public policy forum. In Canada, I would like to see at the federal level—actually at any level—more cooperation on the victim issue. I didn't say on punishment.

Public Safety committee  It is extremely difficult in this country to get accurate statistics on the use of restitution. It is also difficult, but not impossible, to get statistics on the harm. The $83 billion comes from a combination of the crime victims survey multiplied by the estimates of costs. This country does victimization surveys only every five years.

Public Safety committee  I think what we have to do is work out what restitution is justified in respect of the harm that was done to the victim and what actually gets paid. You should not be trying to get blood out of stone. You have to recognize that somebody who's incarcerated is typically not getting a lot of income and therefore you're not going to get a lot of money.

Public Safety committee  I am not for or against. I don't have a comment.

Public Safety committee  I don't have a comment on that.

Public Safety committee  I comment on what I specialize in. I specialize in the needs and rights of victims, how we can meet those needs, how we can prevent.... I'm not a specialist on this issue, so I prefer to not comment.