Public Safety committee  For sure there would have to be independent oversight outside the private partnership. In terms of accountability, it should go beyond, as I stated earlier, performance indicators alone.

Public Safety committee  I'll say that the one measure I wouldn't use is the crime rate. One of the things that I hear quite often is that Canada's crime rate is going down, and all of that. To be clear on that, it's the reported rate of crime. We know that. We also know that something else is going down.

Public Safety committee  That could be a measure, yes.

Public Safety committee  I'd have to spend a little bit more time thinking about that in depth.

Public Safety committee  Yes.

Public Safety committee  To establish and be clear on whose responsibility the program was, and who could be held accountable for that program, and how widely the results and dissemination of information about that program could be distributed....

Public Safety committee  On page 6 of the report that has been distributed to you, the author says this: Given that no SIBs have yet reached the payout stage, it is not yet possible to assess whether these potential benefits will materialize. I'm not sure if we know yet that these programs are either beneficial—that they actually have the desired outcome—and/or if they'll be sustainable.

Public Safety committee  Yes, I would say that's correct. I think that it is the spirit of the report. It moves things beyond just lip service or a window dressing, and it's toward sustainability. It's hard to disagree with the word “prevention”. Prevention is a wonderful word; everybody wants to prevent crime.

Public Safety committee  Sure, I'd love to. I think what I could start with is my dissertation, which specifically examined not only the global context of crime prevention efforts but domestic efforts as well, right down to the municipal crime reduction plan that the City of Surrey has done. My senior supervisor was Dr.

Public Safety committee  Mr. Chair, if I may?

Public Safety committee  Sure. I think the first thing is just dissemination of information. The very first stop for the United Kingdom outside of the Cornish report that I call a key milestone is the Gladstone report, which is basically a fairly dry report. It's a methodological contribution, but that report in the British setting stated clearly that in order to not continue to spin our wheels or to repeat the mistakes of the past, we had to take an evidence-based approach, and that in doing so, the next step was to disseminate our findings widely.

Public Safety committee  I saw first-hand municipalities struggling with crime prevention and where to get their money. Most of the protective service budget for the City of Surrey goes towards police and fire services. In my dissertation, I look beyond what works to an examination of various strategies at the municipal level.

Public Safety committee  Well, I don't think those are my words. I think that if we look at the United Nations compendium, it's clear that they have stated—and Canada has signed onto this—that crime prevention is best undertaken by local area governments, and that would be the municipalities. I think that not only does the UN report say that, but if we go back to the Horner report, it also clearly states that municipalities need to be a central part of crime prevention in Canada.

Public Safety committee  When I worked with the City of Surrey and sat on that board, I also had the opportunity to interview non-profit organizations, charities. Some faith-based ministries were very nervous about government involvement in their activity. Their activity is very important, in my mind, given the fact that they carry out all sorts of relationship types of programs, drug and alcohol recovery programs, all of which are relatively unknown to the general or broader sector of society, but I think that it is substantial.

Public Safety committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I could address the question, I have actually reviewed a report that was delivered to you called “Social Impact Bonds: Overview and Considerations”. I believe it was mentioned earlier in your meetings. Of course, it was a very sombre kind of look at the social bonds.