Public Accounts committee  Our accountability is for the services delivered by those agencies to the extent that we fund them. I'm not trying to avoid the question, but if you actually run the agency, you have two accountabilities. You have to report to INAC for the money that we provide them, and you have to report to the provincial director of child welfare, because you're using the provincial minister's authorities.

Public Accounts committee  I think the apology that was delivered in the House of Commons was a very moving event. I'm sure you would attest to that. I watched it on television and presided over an event at the department. People were in tears and were quite moved by it. What I think it's done is reinforce a couple of things.

Public Accounts committee  It's in the neighbourhood of 8,000. I can get the exact number from Ms. Johnston.

Public Accounts committee  What I meant by that, and Ms. Johnston will clarify this for me, is that of the kinds of care that an agency can provide, such as foster care, support in the family, and taking them out and putting them in care, by far the most expensive is putting them in care. According to our evaluations, it runs around $90,000 to $100,000 per child, whereas the prevention services run closer to $20,000 to $25,000 per kid.

Public Accounts committee  Yes, I was listening intently.

Public Accounts committee  I think there's a question in there--

Public Accounts committee  The problem with the child welfare is a policy problem in that we do not have the tools to really achieve the results that Parliament would expect. We are trying to put in place prevention-based child welfare, which is exactly what all provinces tried to do in the 1990s. I did explain to you, sir, that we have accomplished that in Alberta, in Saskatchewan, in Nova Scotia, and we would like to extend that prevention-based approach to other provinces.

Public Accounts committee  Our role consists in funding services on-reserve.

Public Accounts committee  Let me answer the easier questions. In the department, we have about 30 persons, along with 10 persons in Ottawa and about 20 in the regions. The report states that there is a shortage of full-time management personnel. We have solved that problem. Ms. Johnston, who is sitting next to you, is the one in charge of the program; she is a specialist in that field.

Public Accounts committee  The department's management costs cover almost exclusively the wages of the 30 public servants.

Public Accounts committee  I did not catch all your questions.

Public Accounts committee  We are constantly in touch with the communities and with the provinces. Ms. Cram is in charge of partnerships. As I mentioned in my comments, we have already concluded tripartite agreements with three provinces, and we are negotiating with four or five other provinces. We hope to form partnerships with other provinces during this year, and certainly before 2012.

Public Accounts committee  It is probably too early to tell. We launched a partnership with Alberta in the spring of 2007. We are hoping to begin an evaluation exercise with our partners next year. We must let the initiative go forward before we can measure it. We are very, very optimistic because of the experience of the Alberta government.

Public Accounts committee  I'm not sure I caught all the questions, so we'll come back to them. I'll turn the formula question over to Ms. Cram. I think the point I'd like to register, very briefly, is that the program prior to 2006 had a fundamental policy flaw, which is that it was biased toward taking kids into care.

Public Accounts committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee. You've already introduced my colleagues who work in this area. We have the complete array of ADM, director general, and director, who can help me with questions from the committee. I welcome the opportunity to bring your members up to date on our efforts to improve first nations child and family services on-reserve.