Foreign Affairs committee  In terms of food security, the Chinese population has grown by three times since the regime came in and the amount of arable land has actually been reduced due to desertification and urbanization, yet we estimate that the number of people living in absolute poverty in China--those who have trouble getting enough to eat and having enough energy to keep their bodies warm and clothed--is now down to about 80 million, whereas it used to be 300 million in a smaller population.

Foreign Affairs committee  Frankly, I don't--

Foreign Affairs committee  To respond to those points and the freedom to move from place to place, I'd mention that there still is a registration system in existence, and people who move into the cities don't have the right to register there. They're lacking membership in that city. They're basically temporarily in the city; it's not as if people have the freedom to move where they wish.

Foreign Affairs committee  Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here at the Parliament of Canada. As someone who has been concerned about Canada-China relations for many years, I am particularly happy to see the China question being reviewed by Parliament, which is, of course, the most authoritative institution in our political system.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  With regard to the question of the diaspora organizations, in my view, one reason why it's difficult for Canada to be as effective in China as one would like is that we rely on our Canadian diplomats, most of whom do not have strong Chinese language skills and/or in-depth knowledge of the Chinese situation, because of the rotational nature of diplomatic service--three years in China, and then back to work in Pittsburgh and then....

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  This is a difficult question because I address it in the classified part of the report, referring to a classified tell that I don't think I can characterize here. If you have an opportunity to look at the classified section, it's pretty clear about discussions that Mr. Axworthy had with Chinese leadership in this regard.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  That's a very good question. If I could say one thing off the top about the legislative exchange between the Parliament of Canada and the National People's Congress, I do think it's good for us to be engaging parliamentarians in China. However, we have to be very careful that we're not being manipulated by the Chinese side to try to establish a moral equivalence between our democratic parliamentary institutions and the National People's Congress of China, which is not in any way qualitatively anything like the Canadian Parliament.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Maybe I can speak briefly and then give it to the experts on human rights here. First of all, with regard to your first part, when I started to get into this work, my feeling was that it's like the song, “To know know know her/Is to love love love her”. If we had a dialogue and we explained to the Chinese our political institutions and our values, once they understood them, they would want them for themselves, because we've developed a wonderful country based on these values of universal human rights.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  In terms of aid, I believe CIDA refers to it as development cooperation and doesn't see us as giving money to the Chinese regime.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  Of course, as you know, China is a country that has a wonderfully rising economy. They're investing extensively in Canada. They've launched a man into space. You see the coastal cities of China and these are wonderfully modern cities. The problem of poverty in China persists because the Chinese government, not being a democratic government, does not allocate national resources in a just way.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  If I could say one more thing in terms of your question, the most significant thing that could happen in China would be if China adopted freedom of information and a free press that would bring these issues to the attention of the society at large. Secondly, freedom of association would allow a free NGO sector, which is largely illegal in China because of Chinese government regulations with regard to registration of associations.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  My view is that there is absolutely no relationship between trade and human rights programming. The Chinese will always want to buy the best product at the best price, regardless of the source, so I really don't think it's going to make any difference. We do hear from the Chinese when we do things that they would prefer we not do; for example, when our senior leaders met the Dalai Lama, the Chinese embassy made statements promising grave consequences, but since the Dalai Lama's departure to another country, we have so far not seen those consequences.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  With regard to your question about CIDA programming, the CIDA programming in China is largely, as I said, on human rights, democratic development, good governance--that's one concept--and the environment. We do have some small programs like the Canada Fund, which is a small program designed to engage in specific projects in largely border regions of China.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  I think there may be some misunderstanding. What was removed from my report was not actually recommendations for policy. That sort of stuff was never going to be allowed to be put in, because my report touched on areas that are classified. I read a great deal of material; a lot of it is classified.

Subcommittee on International Human Rights committee  With regard to the relationship between the CIDA programming and dialogue, from the beginning there has been CIDA funding for this activity. But in the early rounds of the dialogue CIDA was reluctant to make it known to the Chinese government that they were providing this funding, because in the context of that time CIDA was concerned that the Chinese government might start to perceive CIDA as a political agency.